Moyes I loved you but now I'm happier
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As far as I know it's still there, yes. The cost of managing the debt is far more comfortable though.
The second part is only half right.. It's only other Premier League clubs that have got this extra money. Right now even the smallest Premier League sides are in a stronger financial position than 90% of the rest of Europe.
Before the new TV deal Everton were under pressure to sell their best players and would need a huge sale before they could sign a £10m+ player. They're no longer are under pressure to sell and could feasibly sign a £15-20m player (from abroad) without having to sell first.
The second part is only half right.. It's only other Premier League clubs that have got this extra money. Right now even the smallest Premier League sides are in a stronger financial position than 90% of the rest of Europe.
Before the new TV deal Everton were under pressure to sell their best players and would need a huge sale before they could sign a £10m+ player. They're no longer are under pressure to sell and could feasibly sign a £15-20m player (from abroad) without having to sell first.
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Baz is right that our finances are far better than they were. Also, we still have a decent portion of the Fellaini money left to spend, possibly on top of whatever money we would have had anyway. Everton, for once, are in a fairly decent financial position from what I can gather, and could easily sign a couple of good players without having to sell up. Though now we have the added Jelavic money (£5m or so by all accounts) there's certainly money there we can spend.
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Everton would be best served using the extra money for a couple years servicing the debt to get it much more manageable and focusing on players you could pick up on cheap deals, loans if they can.
Prices won't change hugely because of the tv deals because ultimately if 10 clubs in Europe want to buy a player from lets say Sevilla and his "european" price is £5mil, why would Everton spend 15mil, they'll offer 6mil. Where the tv money ends up pretty quickly is in increased wages. Arsenal/Utd were spending around the 60-70mil mark in wages around the 2000-2004 time frame, this has since launched upwards to 140-170mil, every few years tv money goes up, and wages pretty much follow on within a couple years. That doesn't account for the entire difference, but much of it, the rest being made up by commercial and in Utd's case, though their commercial increase makes ours look pretty pitiful in comparison, it's offset by far larger debt repayments. 30mil bought you a top player in 2000, and 30mil buys you a top player today.
I linked to some quotes from Pienaar and others regarding changes at Everton, I think it was Pienaar who remarked there were huge changes in style and training and that the first three games of the season went fairly poorly(3 draws) but they could feel the change and knew it would work, it would just take a little time to click together, and then it certainly did. Everton are 5 points up on last year with a better defensive record, but this included this change in style, it included the 3 draws where they were adapting and enacting this plan on the pitch, something Moyes didn't have to deal with last year.
The first three games were West brom, norwich and Cardiff, if they played those games now, I'd expect a minimum of 7 points, maybe all 9.
It's incredibly that with such a shift in style and a pretty heavy change in the front 6 that it took just 3 games to adapt and find their form and despite this time to adapt they are 5 points ahead as it stands.
Prices won't change hugely because of the tv deals because ultimately if 10 clubs in Europe want to buy a player from lets say Sevilla and his "european" price is £5mil, why would Everton spend 15mil, they'll offer 6mil. Where the tv money ends up pretty quickly is in increased wages. Arsenal/Utd were spending around the 60-70mil mark in wages around the 2000-2004 time frame, this has since launched upwards to 140-170mil, every few years tv money goes up, and wages pretty much follow on within a couple years. That doesn't account for the entire difference, but much of it, the rest being made up by commercial and in Utd's case, though their commercial increase makes ours look pretty pitiful in comparison, it's offset by far larger debt repayments. 30mil bought you a top player in 2000, and 30mil buys you a top player today.
I linked to some quotes from Pienaar and others regarding changes at Everton, I think it was Pienaar who remarked there were huge changes in style and training and that the first three games of the season went fairly poorly(3 draws) but they could feel the change and knew it would work, it would just take a little time to click together, and then it certainly did. Everton are 5 points up on last year with a better defensive record, but this included this change in style, it included the 3 draws where they were adapting and enacting this plan on the pitch, something Moyes didn't have to deal with last year.
The first three games were West brom, norwich and Cardiff, if they played those games now, I'd expect a minimum of 7 points, maybe all 9.
It's incredibly that with such a shift in style and a pretty heavy change in the front 6 that it took just 3 games to adapt and find their form and despite this time to adapt they are 5 points ahead as it stands.
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I think he's getting loads of credit actually, and deservedly so. However, no-one can deny that the solid base he has in place came from the Moyes regime. One thing Moyes excelled at was making Everton hard to beat. Martinez, to his credit, hasn't really changed how we work defensively. We work as a team, we close down, we try to deny the opposition space to play football. We did that under Moyes, and we still do it now. Martinez has just really expanded how good we are going forward. The signs were there under Moyes near the end that we could play good football. With players like Pienaar, Mirallas, Osman and others, we could play some very good football. Martinez has really expanded on that and taken it to the next level.
Thanks
In the same way I wouldn't jump on a manger for not getting it right or wanting him out after 6 months I also am prepared to wait a bit before casting Martinez as a messiah
Hell even after all the trophies Wenger won, last year people started saying his early success was only because of the George Graham defense he has to build from.
Part of being a good manager is to get the best out of your existing staff.
Yes, buying new players is important, but for me, the most important aspect of management is team/playing strategy and getting the best out of your existing team.
Martinez has come in, worked with existing playing and is getting more out of them than Moyes ever did.
Conversely, Moyes has come to Man Utd, taken over the title winning team and is getting less out of them than Fergie was able to.
The first half of the season has shown that Martinez is highly intelligent and has ideas, which appear to be working. We are also seeing at Man Utd, that Moyes has very few ideas - something which we saw at Everton. Somebody above stated that at Everton, Moyes would react to the opposing team, rather than be pro-active and set the pace. That's exactly what he is doing at Man Utd.
The question is: how long can Martinez keep up the good work at Everton? If he keeps it up for another 1-2 years, I have no doubt that a bigger club will come calling...and rightfully so.
Yes, buying new players is important, but for me, the most important aspect of management is team/playing strategy and getting the best out of your existing team.
Martinez has come in, worked with existing playing and is getting more out of them than Moyes ever did.
Conversely, Moyes has come to Man Utd, taken over the title winning team and is getting less out of them than Fergie was able to.
The first half of the season has shown that Martinez is highly intelligent and has ideas, which appear to be working. We are also seeing at Man Utd, that Moyes has very few ideas - something which we saw at Everton. Somebody above stated that at Everton, Moyes would react to the opposing team, rather than be pro-active and set the pace. That's exactly what he is doing at Man Utd.
The question is: how long can Martinez keep up the good work at Everton? If he keeps it up for another 1-2 years, I have no doubt that a bigger club will come calling...and rightfully so.
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There's talk that barca have been really impressed by him and I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up there in a few years...
Well, we'd best make sure we finish 7th then. Wouldn't want to have to play in the Europa League either
Martinez is a far better manager than Moyes, as this season is showing. He did a great job at first but he should have left after his first 5 year stint. He's taken a Man U side which, whilst admittedly is not their finest ever, managed to win the league last season and has them playing like a mid-table side. Martinez inherited a good side but has added to it and has them playing the most entertaining football I've seen in my lifetime at Goodison (for the record I'm 33).
Personally I'd rather play in the CL for a season and then come 10th the season after than not bother at all. No reason we can't get 4th. We're as good as any other team at that end of the league (except perhaps City this year).
I agree; while I completely get the argument about a season of European football potentially having a detrimental affect on league form for clubs without a massive depth of squad, you have to ask yourself what is the point of even playing if you aren't going to try and challenge for European qualification (I don't mean that in the literal sense, but more a case of, surely the point of competing in a league is to do the best you can, the goal is to finish in the top places but if you don't want that why even care about the knock-on effect for the following season, since presumably one doesn't want to do well that season either)? The only times I would want to sacrifice that European football would be in cases where a team is going to face a real struggle to stay in the division i.e. better to finish 17th two seasons running than 5th one season and 18th the next. Obviously same for Championship clubs, playing European football (via cup finals or fair play award typically) could be a bad thing if it means missing out on promotion.
I mean, if you don't want to play in Europe, why even worry that much about league form for the next season in the first place, if one assumes the club is not good enough to win the league but 'too good to go down' (TM)? What are you saving yourself for? Yes, I think you get an extra ~£0.75m per league place or whatever but still dwarfed by TV money.
Newcastle are a case in point, good season two years ago, qualified for Europe, then a mediocre season last year blamed on European football, now this season no European football again and doing kinda OK in the league again. Why is that a bad thing? It's not like Newcastle were going to win the league last season if they hadn't been in Europe.
I mean, if you don't want to play in Europe, why even worry that much about league form for the next season in the first place, if one assumes the club is not good enough to win the league but 'too good to go down' (TM)? What are you saving yourself for? Yes, I think you get an extra ~£0.75m per league place or whatever but still dwarfed by TV money.
Newcastle are a case in point, good season two years ago, qualified for Europe, then a mediocre season last year blamed on European football, now this season no European football again and doing kinda OK in the league again. Why is that a bad thing? It's not like Newcastle were going to win the league last season if they hadn't been in Europe.
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And people accuse Manu fans of having short memories. My god, it took him the first 5 years to stabilise and build a squad, the next 5 years his he had us finish much more consistently in the top half.
I hate the daily mail but this article sums up the disregard Everton fans have all a sudden got for Moyes...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...n-exactly-position-Christmas-David-Moyes.html
Personally I think lots of them have turned into ungrateful ****s because he's at Manu and seemingly failing. I dread to think what would have happened had moyes left after 5 years and a new manager came in before the solid squad we ended up with due to years of consistency within the club.
Kinda doing ok? How many games have they won since sunderland
The last time everton qualified for the CL we finished 11th the next season. I take your point but equally that doesn't help you hang on to the decent players you have when you suffer so badly the following season.Anyway it's a discussion for next season and after all this is Martinez, the new messiah if we qualify for the CL we will be in the semi's at least.
8 out of 13 in the league by my count - kinda OK
You see to me finishing 4th then 11th is fine, better than say 7th and 8th.
Hanging on to players - maybe an issue I suppose but equally playing in Europe raises the club profile and potentially attracts players. Decent players at clubs not challenging for trophies will always be targets for other clubs anyway, it's not like finishing 6th every year will necessarily guarentee players wanting to stay (Lescott, Arteta, Fellaini et al). Heck even finishing top 4 every year doesn't do that, just look at Arsenal!
You see to me finishing 4th then 11th is fine, better than say 7th and 8th.
Hanging on to players - maybe an issue I suppose but equally playing in Europe raises the club profile and potentially attracts players. Decent players at clubs not challenging for trophies will always be targets for other clubs anyway, it's not like finishing 6th every year will necessarily guarentee players wanting to stay (Lescott, Arteta, Fellaini et al). Heck even finishing top 4 every year doesn't do that, just look at Arsenal!
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I know my issue with Moyes, and I assume a lot of other evertonians, is the public tapping up of baines and fellaini in the summer. Coming out saying he wouldn't have stood in their way if he was still in charge. Then when he did come for them he offered a pittance. £10 million for Baines. Seriously?
The way he acted was exactly the way city acted when they signed Lescott. We all know how angry Moyes was over that! He used it as a grudge and our record against them since that transfer shows that.
He destroyed all of the goodwill built up over a decade in a heartbeat by doing that. He used to get so angry if any of the 'big' clubs tried tapping our players then he did it straight away.
I am thankful for what he did, which was a lot, but screw him! Did he really not expect any repercussions for turning into the bully he so dispised. I hope he gets sacked!
It's no surprise that Everton are more entertaining without Moyes in charge.
Even if Martinez actual league result is no better than Moyes at the end of the season at least the fans can see that he actually tried to win every game as opposed to Moyes focusing on not getting beat.
Which is far better value for money for ticket buying fans.
Even if Martinez actual league result is no better than Moyes at the end of the season at least the fans can see that he actually tried to win every game as opposed to Moyes focusing on not getting beat.
Which is far better value for money for ticket buying fans.
We'd have maybe got an exciting young manager who wasn't afraid to take chances? The last 6 years of Moyes brand football was dire (with the exception of most of the 12/13 season) but I tolerated it because I thought it was for the best. I only really wanted him to leave after the FA Cup semi-final against Liverpool as that was a perfect microcosm of why he'll never win a major trophy. 1-0 up and then defend for the rest of the game.
Moyes stabbed himself in the back. Everton fans gave him a great send off which he then promptly ruined by publicly trying to shape Everton's transfer policy, while he was United manager, in a way that worked for United.
I still massively respect what he did while at the club, but the trajectories that Everton and United are on since he left show exactly what the limitations of his style are. We'd never have won at Old Trafford this year if he was in charge.
I still massively respect what he did while at the club, but the trajectories that Everton and United are on since he left show exactly what the limitations of his style are. We'd never have won at Old Trafford this year if he was in charge.
Interested to know what it would take for DM to get sacked. One would imagine he'll be given a fair amount of time even if he doesn't land a trophy, but for example would failure to qualify for the CL see him gone in the summer?