Poll: Nick Clegg vs Nigel Farage - EU Debate

[elmarko]

Well if you wanted to satisfy your own curiosity you could search yourself

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/5417432/Immigrants-send-11m-home-each-day.html

"And now we find that remittances have shot up as immigrants have sent savings home. So much for the benefits of uncontrolled immigration."
Figures from the Office for National Statistics show just over £11 billion was sent home by migrants in the UK in 2007 compared with just over £2 billion in 1998.

capiche?

http://www.migrationwatchuk.co.uk/briefingPaper/document/160

Yes, but how does that £11 billion compare against the positive economic benefits which result from them working/paying tax/spending money in the local economy?

One figure is meaningless on it's own without context, I plan on looking at those figures later tonight (it was more of an open question as at work at the moment & can't really dedicate time to research the exact figures).

Also, having just read the article why are you taking the highest year on record (the £11 billion)?, not the most recent?.

"A total of £4 billion a year now flows out of the country in remittances after figures almost doubled in a decade, according to Migrationwatch."

Also, without knowing how that figures compares against the total income spent locally it's just a meaningless figure.

 

[Zethor]

Are you on about distance? I can't see that being a problem.

Yes because moving something over the Channel costs as much as moving it over 2 oceans.

 

[Tunney]

I love it when people talk about the strain immigration has caused on the NHS. The NHS wouldn't be able to function without immigrant workers.

 

[The Running Man]

I recognize that micro cultures from foreign workers can cause issues locally. That is certainly an issue, however, there are other solutions to this than just closing the metaphorical door.

Only valid if and it's a big if that there was value in the door being wide open beforehand and not slightly ajar and policed.

 

[Judgeneo]

Are you on about distance? I can't see that being a problem.

No he means that India is really far away from Jamaica and Nigeria.

Though I don't really think that is too much of an issue. I can't even think of an example where UK companies make good use of the proximity of Eurozone countries in a way we wouldn't be able to do if we weren't in the EU - its all across the channel anyway.

Anything we like but with no stupid rules of extra tax ect.

We could sell anything, but our main exports are financial services, high end engineering, and other premium services.
The commonwealth market for such things isn't really developed yet.

Of course, it would be a great opportunity for us to get a strong foothold there whilst they grow. But IRC being a member of the EU means that all trade deals would effect the EU, so would be subject to their approval, making it much more difficult for us.

 

[The Running Man]

Yes, but how does that £11 billion compare against the positive economic benefits which result from them working/paying tax/spending money in the local economy?

One figure is meaningless on it's own without context, I plan on looking at those figures later tonight (it was more of an open question as at work at the moment & can't really dedicate time to research the exact figures).

Also, having just read the article where do you get the 11 billion from?.

A total of £4 billion a year now flows out of the country in remittances after figures almost doubled in a decade, according to Migrationwatch.

£11m per day is £4 billion not 11.

It comes down to whether that job could have been filled internally from our unemployed list who is also claiming unemployment benefits.

The numbers are a little jumbled but they are the ONS numbers not mine. I just linked to a news article that related to the ONS numbers.

 

[elmarko]

It comes down to whether that job could have been filled internally from our unemployed list who is also claiming unemployment benefits.

The numbers are a little jumbled but they are the ONS numbers not mine. I just linked to a news article that related to the ONS numbers.

Not just that, it also depends on if the additional immigrants generated enough demand for goods & services to offset those jobs (by the additional creation of them).

It also depends on if the total cost to the public purse (due to not having to educate them, pay for care) is as such the tax receipt from them is more valuable (as they will have to earn less to be net contributors due to our government not paying for there entire welfare life-cycle like we do with residents).

 

[The Running Man]

Yes and no. If they buy all halal produce imported specifically for their own consumption or use black markets for goods etc then while transactions might happen in the uk they are not adding value within the uk as the money will flow out of the country again.

If you're on benefits you can't spend much. If you have a good income you have more disposable income so you're net spend would be higher anyway buying goods and services without costing the tax payer for the benefits.

That's why it's imperative to understand whether this is solely incremental employment or cannibalistic ofjobs that could be filled locally.

edit we already have free education and private education. Training schemes in the uk would cost I agree but spending internally is usually a stilimulus through the economy anyway with less chance of net withdrawals from the economy.

 

[elmarko]

Yes and no. If they buy all halal produce imported specifically for their own consumption or use black markets for goods etc then while transactions might happen in the uk they are not adding value within the uk as the money will flow out of the country again.

If you're on benefits you can't spend much. If you have a good income you have more disposable income so you're net spend would be higher anyway buying goods and services without costing the tax payer for the benefits.

That's why it's imperative to understand whether this is solely incremental employment or cannibalistic ofjobs that could be filled locally.

They will still pay tax on imported halal produce purchased from the shops & it's a bit of a stretch to imagine that our entire (or even a significant portion of our immigrant population) deals in outside of the loop black markets for general day to day purchases.

I assume those against mass immigration from the EU under the pretext/reason of protecting low paid workers are also in favour of strong unionisation, a higher minimum wage & political changes which favour increasing tax on the higher earners to reduce the burden on the working classes?. (not aimed at you btw The Running Man, an open question to this thread).

 

[deuse]

Yes because moving something over the Channel costs as much as moving it over 2 oceans.

It costs me more to have something sent from France then it does from china. I can do that as well.

No he means that India is really far away from Jamaica and Nigeria.

Read above please. Distance is not a object these days and it was over 400 years ago when we was trading around the world.

 

[Zethor]

Yes and no. If they buy all halal produce imported specifically for their own consumption or use black markets for goods etc then while transactions might happen in the uk they are not adding value within the uk as the money will flow out of the country again.

EU citizens who work in the UK buy all halal produce and use black market goods? What? I think this a rare a glympse of the inner workings of a mind of a xenophobe. The nebula that exists in there is probably so twisted and complicated, they get lost in their own thoughts.

Golden.

It costs me more to have something sent from France then it does from china. I can do that as well.

Of course it's easy to get things from China but it's quite another story when you want to send things to China and expect payment for them.

 

[LordSplodge]

The leaders of two of the most significant political parties in the United Kingdom are nobodies? Their actions will decide who forms the next government, and possibly governments beyond the next.

If UKIP decides who hold power then we have bigger problems than a debate between Farage and Clegg.

'Nobodies' was a tad tongue in cheek of me to be fair.

Are we only interested in celebrities these days? Plenty of people were interested in what Jo Brand had to say, after all.

Actually I'd rather listen to Farage and Clegg. I dislike celebrity culture.

 

[deuse]

Of course it's easy to get things from China but it's quite another story when you want to send things to China and expect payment for them.

Never had a problem with sending or getting things from china. You got to love their FREE postage to the UK

 

[The Running Man]

EU citizens who work in the UK buy all halal produce and use black market goods? What? I think this a rare a glympse of the inner workings of a mind of a xenophobe. The nebula that exists in there is probably so twisted and complicated, they get lost in their own thoughts.

Golden.


Of course it's easy to get things from China but it's quite another story when you want to send things to China and expect payment for them.

It was an example not necessarily only from the eu but from our wider immigrant communities.

Have you seen the local polish shop selling polish goodies? Imported from Poland, profit goes back to Poland.

My problem is most of you guys don't even think about how the value chain works let alone understand the implications so who are you to even harbour this kind of view when you probably don't understand the basic economic principles behind the problem.

 

[Zethor]

It was an example not necessarily only from the eu but from our wider immigrant communities.

Have you seen the local polish shop selling polish goodies? Imported from Poland, profit goes back to Poland.

My problem is most of you guys don't even think about how the value chain works let alone understand the implications so who are you to even harbour this kind of view when you probably don't understand the basic economic principles behind the problem.

Yes because all immigrants are the same and we should be be suspicious about them and the (non)values they bring in the community.

 

[Judgeneo]

It costs me more to have something sent from France then it does from china. I can do that as well.



Read above please. Distance is not a object these days and it wasn't 400 years ago when we was trading around the world.

No but it costs less to have a shared distribution centre for France and Spain, than it does for India and Nigeria.

I'm mostly Anti-EU btw

 

[thep02]

Anything we like but with no stupid rules of extra tax ect.

I can't see that happening, even if it got off the ground bureaucrats tax and rules would soon spring up also the Commonwealth populations are by and large poor and not that well disposed to us as a nation.

 

[badcompany]

I love it when people talk about the strain immigration has caused on the NHS. The NHS wouldn't be able to function without immigrant workers.

it would not need so many workers if it wasn't being swamped with immigrant wanting treatment. A&E is failing due to high numbers of migrants legal or otherwise without GP's or not understanding how it works turning up and wanting treating for everything under the sun. My last 2 trips to a&e all you could hear was eastern european accents.

So you comment is a fallacy and is widely used to defend immigration.

 

[Lartyconshayo]

it would not need so many workers if it wasn't being swamped with immigrant wanting treatment. A&E is failing due to high numbers of migrants legal or otherwise without GP's or not understanding how it works turning up and wanting treating for everything under the sun. My last 2 trips to a&e all you could hear was eastern european accents.

So you comment is a fallacy and is widely used to defend immigration.

the NHS is failing because of tory cuts and privatisation.

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/the-destruction-of-nhs.html

who you should be blaming for uncontrolled immigration ( and asking yourself who stands to gain from it )

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/mass-uncontrolled-immigration.html

 

[badcompany]

The commonwealth isn't really that big a market when you look at it. You have the barrier of geographical sparseness and what would we trade?

lol you serious?

Commonwealth countries make up 26% of the world’s population and account for 15% of global Gross National Income.
The largest country by population is India, with more than 1.2 billion. The smallest is Nauru, population less than 10,000. Canada is the biggest country by area. Nauru again the smallest.
3. Total Gross Domestic Product for Commonwealth countries is greater than that of the EU.

The more serious point to all of these facts and figures is that the Commonwealth brings a lot of potential benefits to its members. Trade is a case in point. You have a group of countries, many with rapidly growing economies, which often have similar economic and legal models and represent potential – and potentially large – markets for the UK and for Malta.

you dont know your facts.


interestingly

taken from http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201012/cmselect/cmfaff/writev/commonwealth/com04.htm

In 2009 the UK contribution to the operating costs of running the Commonwealth was £ 4.6 million# - less than the UK contribution to the OECD (£ 12.5 million). UK contributions to other international bodies were: UN: £ 76 million; WTO: £ 6 million; World Bank: £ 1.2 billion#. In 2009, the UK net cash contribution to EU Institutions was £ 6696 million* – a thousand & a half times greater than the UK contribution to the Commonwealth.


An overwhelming proportion of the world’s GDP growth between 2003 & 2050 – nearly 80 per cent – will occur outside of Europe, the United States and Canada.

· For the last 40 years, preoccupied with "Europe", British governments have neglected the Commonwealth. In the next 40 years, by an accident of history, the Commonwealth will be where much of global GDP growth (and hence of growth in propensity to import) will occur.

· The United Nations has 192 member-countries. The Commonwealth, which will account for 38 per cent of global labour force by 2050, has 55 members. The European Union, which will account for 5 per cent of global labour force by 2050, has 27 members.

· This paper takes growth in Labour Force, here defined as Working-Age (15-64) Population, to be a proxy for growth in GDP, using the latest projections of working-age population from the United Nations.

· It concludes that the rest of the Commonwealth will represent a market over nine times greater than that of the rest of the EU by 2050. Competition to export to & invest in the developing world will be fierce. British exporters will need to maximise their strengths: which is why, over the next forty years, the Commonwealth has the potential to become a valuable component of British trade policy.

Now is the time to be striking trade pacts with our old friends in the commonwealth the EU is a dead duck declining GDP ageing population and insolvent.