whats the deal with this boycott firefox over the CEO gay rights stance

You keep returning to this false argument. No one is trying to curtail his freedom of expression or his ability to express his views without fear or prejudice (which incidentally is not relevant to this as people liked him before they knew about his prop 8 funding, so this is by definition the very opposite of prejudice).

I am afraid it does, the threat that by expressing his views he could be persecuted and/or harassed is inciting that fear no to. If Eich thought that his support of Proposition 8 (and he was by no means the only one) would result in such public harassment and the forced resignation from the company he helped found, do you seriously not think that might have impacted in his freedom to express himself...

The evidence shows quite clearly that Eich has been persecuted for his beliefs and that has adversely affected his personal life. How is that false, it simply depends upon whether you think it us acceptable or not. I don't, you do.
 
A company can't maintain an equal rights and freedoms perception by having a figurehead (the CEO) being outright opposed to equal rights and freedoms.

If a company takes corrective action against its figurehead upon realising its mistake, that doesn't go against its message of equal rights and freedoms, because, well, they are removing the guy who is actually against equal rights and freedoms.

It's a pretty poor argument. I don't feel it needed me to point that out.

To begin with, Mozilla did not fire Eich, he stepped down due his position being untenable because of a campaign of harassment against him.

Secondly, are you actually saying that it is ok to violate an individuals equal rights to prove your advocacy of equal rights?
 
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You Forbes article wrongly draws a line between a company and the conduct of its CEO. Anything which impacts the company's reputation (remember the perception of Mozilla) is relevant to your employment.

So if he was gay and enough anti-gay activists impacted the perception of Mozilla (or any company) and its reputation amongst it consumer base was affected negatively, it is right to remove them?

This isn't about whether it affects their reputation or not, but whether it is right to surrender to it. And whether it breaches the equality of the individual to freely express themselves legally without fear of persecution. Luckily Mozilla was taken out of the issue by the resignation of Eich.
 
To begin with, Mozilla did not fire Eich, he stepped down due his position being untenable because of a campaign of harassment against him.

Secondly, are you actually saying that it is ok to violate an individuals equal rights to prove your advocacy of equal rights?

1. Eich handing in his resignation won't have been a case of him handing in a "thank you for the opportunity" letter on a Monday morning. Officially he resigned, but that's pretty standard from a PR perspective.

2. Whose "equal rights" were violated here, and how? You mean a public backlash against someone who funded a campaign to reduce or prevent equal rights?

What reaction should we have against people who aim to reduce the rights of others?
 
That's where we disagree. It has everything to do with the negative publicity and nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of a witch hunt or anything else. That's what affects his job.

Normally such a resignation is best for everyone to save face and not go down the hassle of GMC.
 
So if he was gay and enough anti-gay activists impacted the perception of Mozilla (or any company) and its reputation amongst it consumer base was affected negatively, it is right to remove them?
That's just a base-level straw man argument.

This isn't about whether it affects their reputation or not, but whether it is right to surrender to it. And whether it breaches the equality of the individual to freely express themselves legally without fear of persecution. Luckily Mozilla was taken out of the issue by the resignation of Eich.
It's not about that at all. It actually about a business making a business decision based on customer feedback, and a realisation that their CEOs conduct and public political standpoint were in opposition to their corporate values. Mozilla's apology even reflected this.
 
1. Eich handing in his resignation won't have been a case of him handing in a "thank you for the opportunity" letter on a Monday morning. Officially he resigned, but that's pretty standard from a PR perspective.

You have evidence of this? Or is it just your unsupported position?

2. Whose "equal rights" were violated here, and how? You mean a public backlash against someone who funded a campaign to reduce or prevent equal rights?

Eich has a protected and fundamental right to support or oppose proposition 8...gay marriage is a controversial constitutional matter and has both advocates and opposers across a broad political and social spectrum. You are advocating that one group has a lower threshold of rights to express their views within that legal debate than another based upon who you think is morally correct. That is not equality. Whether we agree with Eich's position on gay marriage or not is immaterial, we should all have an equal right to express that view without fear of reprisal or persecution.

What reaction should we have against people who aim to reduce the rights of others?

The reaction in making your own argument in the legal arena in which those propositions were made. Which is what happened, Eich supported the campaign for proposition 8, if you disagree with him or the proposition, then support the campaign against that proposition. He should be no more persecuted for his view, than we should for ours.

That's just a base-level straw man argument.

It is simply your argument shown back to you from the other perspective. If it is a Strawman, then so is yours.

It's not about that at all. It actually about a business making a business decision based on customer feedback, and a realisation that their CEOs conduct and public political standpoint were in opposition to their corporate values. Mozilla's apology even reflected this.

Eich's resignation came about due to a very public internet campaign of harassment against him. The decision to resign was based on that, otherwise he would have been voted out long before this...it has been a matter of public record that Eich made this donation for a number of years, in fact OKCupid first bought it up several years ago, if it were a business decision he would not have been appointed in the first place. The fact is the Eich has never made public statements or expressed his politics in a public manner, it was made public by an Internet dating site looking to self publicise for the most part.
 
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That's where we disagree. It has everything to do with the negative publicity and nothing to do with the rights and wrongs of a witch hunt or anything else. That's what affects his job.

Normally such a resignation is best for everyone to save face and not go down the hassle of GMC.

I agree here, his resignation had nothing to do with his or Mozilla's thoughts on his donation...but simply as a reaction to the harassment campaign against him and by association his company.

Is that right?

I don't feel it is.
 
Is it right?
Depends which side you look at it.

If you focus on the which hunt side, no

If you look at the business side and bringing the companies name into disrepute, absolutely right.
His choices has negatively impacted the company in a massive way. Which makes his employment untenable.
This is not removing his freedom, it just means like with all freedom there's consequences.
 
Eich has a protected and fundamental right to support or oppose proposition 8...gay marriage is a controversial constitutional matter and has both advocates and opposers across a broad political and social spectrum. You are advocating that one group has a lower threshold of rights to express their views within that legal debate than another based upon who you think is morally correct. That is not equality. Whether we agree with Eich's position on gay marriage or not is immaterial, we should all have an equal right to express that view without fear of reprisal or persecution.
Eich has a right to express his views, and his rights are unaffected throughout the episode.

But, freedom of expression doesn't give impunity to reaction. By expressing highly disagreeable or contentious views, a reaction is to be expected - at least, it is for someone within the sphere of public consciousness, and especially someone who works as a representative of an organisation which appears to stand for values rather contrary to those expressed.

Eich wasn't sacked forced to resign for his views. He's out of a job because he upset the company's customer base and reputation.

You can't be the figurehead for a company and publicly have views or take part in activities which run contrary to the company's values.
 
Eich has a right to express his views, and his rights are unaffected throughout the episode.

But, freedom of expression doesn't give impunity to reaction. By expressing highly disagreeable or contentious views, a reaction is to be expected - for someone within the sphere of public consciousness, and especially someone who works as a representative of an organisation which appears to stand for values rather contrary to those expressed.

Eich wasn't sacked forced to resign for his views. He's out of a job because he upset the company's customer base and reputation.

You can't be the figurehead for a company and publicly have views or take part in activities which run contrary to the company's values.

I disagree, both with the view that you can only express your personal view with impunity if the majority agree with you or they are contingent upon your own moral code, and that it was right that he was forced to resign over his donation.
 
I disagree, both with the view that you can only express your personal view with impunity if the majority agree with you or they are contingent upon your own moral code, and that it was right that he was forced to resign over his donation.

t's not with what the majority view. Its what the majority of your customer base views.

Hunting is a good one, where the general view is the opposite of the business view, or at least in this country.

Or you keep such opinions out if public view.
But even footballers haven't managed that and get sacked for affairs which they've tried to keep out of public view. Is that wrong as it was media which hunt?
 
Is it right?
Depends which side you look at it.

If you focus on the which hunt side, no

If you look at the business side and bringing the companies name into disrepute, absolutely right.
His choices has negatively impacted the company in a massive way. Which makes his employment untenable.
This is not removing his freedom, it just means like with all freedom there's consequences.

These are two issues.....it is the witch hunt to which I have been referring to expressly throughout this debate...that he was forced to resign is wrong in my opinion...that said, of course I understand why he stood down and why his position was untenable...but it wasn't his choices that determined that, it was the witch hunt against him that forced that position upon him.

In an equal and free society he would have been free to donate to proposition 8 and not be persecuted for it...the right thing to do, is what plenty of people did do...oppose proposition 8 by their own donation and argue the positions in Court. Unfortunately we do not live in a free, equal society and while it is ironic that Eich supported a proposition that sought to continue an inequality in society, he is as much a victim of that inequality in society as those affected by the very proposition he donated to.

As was said earlier..there are no winners here...least of all the cause for an equal and free society free from persecution simply because you believe something different.
 
t's not with what the majority view. Its what the majority of your customer base views.

Hunting is a good one, where the general view is the opposite of the business view, or at least in this country.

Or you keep such opinions out if public view.
But even footballers haven't managed that and get sacked for affairs which they've tried to keep out of public view. Is that wrong as it was media which hunt?

Eich didn't make any public statements or express his view publicly. He was listed, along with over 6000 others as contributing to the campaign for proposition 8 by the media. He was singled out by an Internet dating site, presumably to raise the profile of that internet dating site.

Which footballers were sacked for commiting adultery?
 
These are two issues.....it is the witch hunt to which I have been referring to expressly throughout this debate...that he was forced to resign is wrong in my opinion...that said, of course I understand why he stood down and why his position was untenable...but it wasn't his choices that determined that, it was the witch hunt against him that forced that position upon him.

In an equal and free society he would have been free to donate to proposition 8 and not be persecuted for it...the right thing to do, is what plenty of people did do...oppose proposition 8 by their own donation and argue the positions in Court. Unfortunately we do not live in a free, equal society and while it is ironic that Eich supported a proposition that sought to continue an inequality in society, he is as much a victim of that inequality in society as those affected by the very proposition he donated to.

As was said earlier..there are no winners here...least of all the cause for an equal and free society free from persecution simply because you believe something different.

You continue to ignore the relevance of WHO he worked for and the position he held in the organisation.

This result (job loss) wouldn't have happened to every CEO. But being hte CEO of Mozilla means different things are expected of you, due to the corporate identity.

As CEO one of the things you are, effectively, paid for is (at the least) not to appear opposed to the company's values.

You're also paid not to be the origin of a media storm which calls the company's ethics into question.

And, actually, equality is the winner. The public is again illustrating that we are moving past a world in which it's ok to be bigoted. Opposing equality is always bad.
 
You continue to ignore the relevance of WHO he worked for and the position he held in the organisation.

That is an assumption on your part. I am well aware of these things...I simply disagree with you. As one employee at Mozilla is reported in the Guardian said, "no one can say that Eich's departure is a win in any way."

And they are right, there are no winners here...except perhaps OKcupid's balance sheet.


And, actually, equality is the winner. The public is again illustrating that we are moving past a world in which it's ok to be bigoted. Opposing equality is always bad.

I'm glad that you think opposing equality is always bad... So do I, which is why I think the witch hunt against Eich, and those who donated to proposition 8 is wrong. Given your stated position, its strange that you think effectively removing an individuals freedom to express themselves legally without fear of persecution is ok simply because you think that individual is wrong.

That we disagree with Eich and his position on gay marriage isn't reason to persecute him for it. It makes us no better, in fact it makes us worse than he is.

On that note, I'm off to bed so it's been an interesting, albeit rather frustrating debate and I bid you all a goodnight.
 
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That is an assumption on your part. I am well aware of these things...I simply disagree with you. As one employee at Mozilla is reported in the Guardian said, "no one can say that Eich's departure is a win in any way."

And they are right, there are no winners here...except perhaps OKcupid's balance sheet.




I'm glad that you think opposing equality is always bad... So do I, which is why I think the witch hunt against Eich, and those who donated to proposition 8 is wrong. Given your stated position, its strange that you think effectively removing an individuals freedom to express themselves legally without fear of persecution is ok simply because you think that individual is wrong.

That we disagree with Eich and his position on gay marriage isn't reason to persecute him for it. It makes us no better, in fact it makes us worse than he is.

On that note, I'm off to bed so it's been an interesting, albeit rather frustrating debate and I bid you all a goodnight.

You're consistently making a mistake which has its roots in your understanding of "free speech".

Free Speech is a democratic concept, which is the absence of government control over what citizens may communicate. It's a political right.

Other citizens' reaction to your free speech does not infringe on your right to free speech. In fact, their reaction is in itself an important facet of free speech.

Besides, the reaction from the public wasn't about his right to say what he said (more accurately; support what he supported) - he is entitled to say it, and no-one (ok, not no-one, but it wasn't the thrust of the opposition) has claimed otherwise.

The problem was that his political position was in opposition to the implied values of the company he represents. Values which are part of the reason for customers choosing Mozilla's products over its competitors. It was a betrayal of values, and people were upset about it.
 
You're consistently making a mistake which has its roots in your understanding of "free speech".

I'm afraid you are absolutely wrong about that. I understand the concept of free speech very well and how it is enshrined in the United States Constitution also, Freedom of Speech in the United States is not absolute, and Eich did not infringe on any of those exceptions with his donation to Prop 8, so he rightly retains the right to express himself, and here is the important part you keep ignoring..without fear of persecution or punishment for exercising those rights. By his being subject to a campaign of harassment by a third party (lets jsut call the The Gay Activists for now) he has had his freedoms restricted as he has been effectively punished for expressing his legal constitutional rights, a legal right that is also protected by law under the same constitutional amendment as freedom of speech, that he is free to petition the Government for redress of grievances..which is exactly what Proposition 8 was.

Other citizens' reaction to your free speech does not infringe on your right to free speech. In fact, their reaction is in itself an important facet of free speech.

What they do not have the right to do is to persecute and demand or force punishment for someone expressing their legally protected views. Which is precisely what happened here...it restricts the individual from freely (and that is important) expressing themselves..they are free to criticise or to petition Government to oppose the petition of the individual or group (which is what like-minded people did), but what is wrong is the harassment of Eich after the fact simply because he has an unpopular view.

That Mozilla did not feel that Eich's donation was a matter for them to deal with outside of allowing their staff to criticise or support it as they saw fit until the The Gay Activists (here abetted by OKCupid) publicity stunt and subsequent media attention tells us that initially they saw nothing innately wrong with Eich exercising, as thousands of others did, his first amendment rights in supporting the petition to Government (otherwise they would not have appointed him)...that they now have bowed to media and public pressure and have effectively punished (albeit not directly as Eich resigned, but their apology is engineered to forestall an ongoing PR issue) Eich for expressing his First Amendment rights..which is contrary to what Mozilla stand for. Admittedly Mozilla find themselves between a rock and a hard place and they either bow to public pressure about Eich's political support of Prop 8 which was inherently opposed to equality of marriage, or they disavow Eich for supporting such a proposition, which in turn infringes his rights...Like I said earlier, there are no winners here..Mozilla are effectively going against their very raison d'etre whatever position they take, for them the least painful route was the one offered to them by Eich himself when he resigned.


Besides, the reaction from the public wasn't about his right to say what he said (more accurately; support what he supported) - he is entitled to say it, and no-one (ok, not no-one, but it wasn't the thrust of the opposition) has claimed otherwise.
The problem was that his political position was in opposition to the implied values of the company he represents. Values which are part of the reason for customers choosing Mozilla's products over its competitors. It was a betrayal of values, and people were upset about it.

No, the problem was that Eich supported Prop8, that is it...it had nothing to do with what Mozilla represents (which is btw, nothing to do with LGBT rights, but internet freedom and freedom of information) and the the only reason Eich was forced to resign was because his private donation to the Proposition 8 campaign was publicly outed by Gay Activists. Eich was targeted by the media because he was head of Mozilla and designed Javascript (when he was CTO there was no such calls even though his donation was known at that time), not because Mozilla stood for Gay Rights or Equality of Marriage, The Gay Activists targeted lots of people on that list, and not always legally either.

All Eich supported was a ballot that defined marriage as the union of a man and woman..a position shared by many people, including the United States current President I might add, should Obama resign because he stated he supported that definition in the past? I should think not...I find the whole intolerance of unpopular views by those demanding tolerance for their views as hypocrisy, for me the issue about the definition of Marriage is one for the constitutional policy makers and not one that should affect the individuals right to freely express and support their preference for one position or the other..what has happened to Eich is that one group (the aforementioned Gay Activists) have decided that his views are unpopular to them and that he should be punished for it (by effectively forcing Mozilla into a position where their business was at risk unless he stepped down). This I find to be in opposition of equality and contrary to basic rights of freedom of expression and conscience, not in favour of it as it is effectively blackmailing people into following a specific subjective morality and agenda at the expense of the individuals right to express themselves within the law.

For me that is what is wrong here, not that Mozilla asked for Eich's resignation, but the events that led up both Eich and Mozilla having no other choice.
 
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What they do not have the right to do is to persecute and demand or force punishment for someone expressing their legally protected views.

They do, that is also protected under free speech. Calling for a boycott is one of the most effective uses of free speech in a capitalist nation.

Which is precisely what happened here...it restricts the individual from freely (and that is important) expressing themselves..they are free to criticise or to petition Government to oppose the petition of the individual or group (which is what like-minded people did), but what is wrong is the harassment of Eich after the fact simply because he has an unpopular view.

They did criticise, they also called for a boycott, it was the adverse publicity from this call for a boycott that led to the resignation of the CEO. Why is them using their rights to free speech wrong but him using his OK?


No, the problem was that Eich supported Prop8, that is it...it had nothing to do with what Mozilla represents (which is btw, nothing to do with LGBT rights, but internet freedom and freedom of information) and the the only reason Eich was forced to resign was because his private donation to the Proposition 8 campaign was publicly outed by Gay Activists.

His support for Proposition 8 wasn't "outed" by gay activists, it was a matter of public record.
 
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