Firaxis discusses why Mantle is revolutionary for their work with Civilization: Beyond Earth

[Rusty0611]

I'm still not convinced that it'll gain Nvidia and Intel support by the time DirectX 12 is out.

It won't and for that reason it'll never really become that widespread. It'll become something for AMD users to 'benefit' from in games where AMD push for it become utilised (read: where AMD cough up enough cash).

All my opinion of course.

Is this necessarily a bad thing? Not really... AMD users can have it as something they want to use as and when it's available, similar to the way PhysX is used.

 

[TheRealDeal]

From what I hear I think Rome 2: Total War might have been knocked up in a day, does that count?

I'm still not convinced that it'll gain Nvidia and Intel support by the time DirectX 12 is out.

You maybe right but as AMD said they are using Mantle to kick start DX. If DX is close to mantle it still help's AMD cpu's and makes them a viable gaming cpu again. It's not about them being the sole API, though if it happened that would be a big Bonus for them. AMD so far have been pretty honest about what they want to get out of Mantle and there goals going forward. I don't see them ever saying they want to take over DX's position.

 

[PhysicsMan94]

Yup, funny how MS started shouting about DX12 after half a decade literally AS SOON AS Mantle came out. The joint propaganda barrage with NV is pretty funny too, with NV claiming they "worked on it with MS" for like 5 years as both companies need to look like they weren't just twiddling their thumbs the whole time. In reality I think the project probably started the day of AMD's Hawaii event and was cobbled together from ideas researchers had been playing with in their spare time.

Do you honestly think that work on DirectX only started recently? A project such as upgrading DirectX to a new version is a pretty large undertaking and would not take a couple of years to "cobble out" a final version (as is expected late 2015). Whilst the figure of 5 years previous work from Nvidia may not be true, I'd wager that it's probably not far off.

 

[tommybhoy]

What I don't understand is the negativity in general from a lot(not all) of the Nvidia guys regarding Mantle.

Mantle so faar hasn't fragmented gaming as it has nothing extra over DX apart from performance, there is ZERO AMD exclusive gpu features of yet.

Mantle and to a lesser extent Steam OS and ogl has pushed MS to make future gaming better-we all win.

Do you honestly think that work on DirectX only started recently?

Yes.

Last year, AMD stated there was no DX12 in development or in the pipeline, as AMD WILL be under nda, if there was anything happening at that time, they could not have made that comment.

MS have had no option to get off their **** and create DX12 after Mantle, big names have stated DX is very close to Mantle, my guess is AMD/Nvidia/MS are actually working closer together than we think as they ALL stand to gain from a better api.

 

[Steampunk]

In my opinion, it would've been better if AMD worked more closely with Microsoft and Nvidia in developing DirectX to solve the problems of generalised hardware optimisations - all 3 companies are very wealthy and have lots of incredibly talented people working for them, together they would've come up with a DirectX based solution which would likely give performance near to Mantle (but available for all configurations).

Both AMD and Nvidia tried that four years ago after the release of DX11, and MS was not interested. Why should they want PC games to run faster and better on hardware that far outclasses their own consoles?

Funny how DX 12 has gone public about a year after MS heard about Mantle - even though it's not arriving in games for another 18 months.

Personally, I'm glad that AMD got off their backsides and did something good for the benefit of their customers. Too long we've been criticising AMD for not stepping up to support their customers with big resources like Nvidia have done with their exclusive technologies like PhysX, CUDA, etc. Now AMD have pulled their fingers out and stepped up, people are criticising them for doing too much that it's showing up the industry standard DX that has stagnated for years.

 

[triss]

Do you honestly think that work on DirectX only started recently? A project such as upgrading DirectX to a new version is a pretty large undertaking and would not take a couple of years to "cobble out" a final version (as is expected late 2015). Whilst the figure of 5 years previous work from Nvidia may not be true, I'd wager that it's probably not far off.

+1
Mantle should have a much less development phase as its only designed for GCN cards and for it to be enabled in some games.
DX has to work on both venders cards which takes more time

As for w/e Comments AMD made didnt make about a new DX coming out either they might well of been simply pushing there own product (which is fine) or they simply weren't in the loop .

 

[Marine-RX179]

Last year, AMD stated there was no DX12 in development or in the pipeline, as AMD WILL be under nda, if there was anything happening at that time, they could not have made that comment.

MS have had no option to get off their **** and create DX12 after Mantle, big names have stated DX is very close to Mantle, my guess is AMD/Nvidia/MS are actually working closer together than we think as they ALL stand to gain from a better api.

Exactly. It's was just typical Nvidia marketing bigging up their involvement with dx12, while the lesser said about AMD's involvement the better. I mean let's face it...part of M$ biggest interest on dx12 is to support Xbone, which is their highest priority as far as gaming community is concerned. Just look at this article:
http://bgr.com/2014/04/07/xbox-one-directx-12-update/

M$ can shout "we care about PC gaming community" all the want, but I just see them desperately trying to remain relevant with trying to win back the console market from Sony on one side, and trying have Windows remain as the PC gaming platform not to lose users/gamers to free OS such Linux and SteamOS in the long run on the other.

Also with the Xbone using GCN based hardware, and Xbone being M$'s biggest interest, would it not make sense that dx12 would actually work more natively on AMD card than Nvidia's?

 

[PhysicsMan94]

Yes.

Last year, AMD stated there was no DX12 in development or in the pipeline, as AMD WILL be under nda, if there was anything happening at that time, they could not have made that comment.

AMD may have stated that, although I cannot recall such a statement, but that is certainly not confirmation that DirectX 12 work was not happening last year. A new version of DirectX would not be ready for launch (and non-beta launch at that) in late 2015 if work only started in 2014, that's just not realistic - it is safe to say that DX12 work started at least 2 years ago given their projected release times. It's just Microsoft may have started to be more public about it when Mantle news got out and about - but it certainly was not started this year, that's a ludicrous assertion.

MS have had no option to get off their **** and create DX12 after Mantle, big names have stated DX is very close to Mantle, my guess is AMD/Nvidia/MS are actually working closer together than we think as they ALL stand to gain from a better api.

I will be interested to see the solutions Microsoft, Nvidia and AMD have come up with in the upcoming increased optimisation in DirectX 12, I find it hard to believe that it is similar to Mantle given that, as I said before, Mantle is a specific graphics API solution - it would not work for Nvidia/Intel GPUs, it's architecture specific. But, of course, I'm not an expert on this so it remains to be seen exactly how the optimisations have been applied.

 

[humbug]

Snip*

Instead, AMD walked the selfish path and decided to take the dangerous, political road to a closed API which will just act to fragment the gaming and graphics industries even further - absolutely not what is needed.

Like Nvidia has been doing for many years, did you complain about Nvidia's lockout mentality fragmenting gaming?

No, because as long as Nvidia have all the tech its all good.

AMD gave developers exactly what they asked for, had that been Nvidia i think you would have been singing a very different tune.

 

[PhysicsMan94]

Like Nvidia has been doing for many years, did you complain about Nvidia's lockout mentality fragmenting gaming?

No, because as long as Nvidia have all the tech its all good.

AMD gave developers exactly what they asked for, had that been Nvidia i think you would have been singing a very different tune.

Absolutely incorrect. I have never supported, nor implied I support, Nvidia's closed technologies - that's not the way it should be done in the industry, and both sides are guilty of it.

You seem to think I'm some sort of massive Nvidia fanboy with that post, which is not the case. I prefer Nvidia over AMD, yes, but obviously not to the point of illogicality.

 

[LegendaryDread]

I prefer Nvidia over AMD, yes, but obviously not to the point of illogicality.

If only some others would follow your example

AMD's Roy Taylor, Interview, April 2013:

"...but there is no DirectX 12 coming. That's it. As far as we know, there are no plans for DirectX 12. If this is incorrect and someone wishes to correct me, great."

Sawz

This whole thought process of "Mantle kickstarted DX12's development" is a bunch of sissy nonsense to soften the blow for those with obsessive compulsive purchase justification syndrome.

 

[mmj_uk]

Once AMD stop bribing developers to add Mantle support and give positive press it will soon go away, the only way Mantle will succeed in the long run is if they can get NVidia onboard. No developer wants to go back to the days of 3DFX Glide and multiple vendor API's and I can't see AMD paying every developer to support it. They need it to become the recognised standard for developers to proactively support it but that won't happen whilst it's only compatible with a small percentage of GPU's, DX12 will prevail ultimately. I'd rather OpenGL be the standard personally but DX12 is better than where we're heading with Mantle.

 

[humbug]

Absolutely incorrect. I have never supported, nor implied I support, Nvidia's closed technologies - that's not the way it should be done in the industry, and both sides are guilty of it.

You seem to think I'm some sort of massive Nvidia fanboy with that post, which is not the case. I prefer Nvidia over AMD, yes, but obviously not to the point of illogicality.

Because all you ever complain about is Mantle and "Bad AMD" for doing it, if you actually made the same valid argument about CUDA or PhysX from time to time you might not look so bias.

Anyway, did you miss this from me?

DirectX, or at least DX11 is very difficult, time consuming and clumsy to use, its expensive Developing games for DirectX

Mantle is nice, simple and cheap, what i would like to see is for Nvidia to make their own Mantle.

Yes that is then 2 API's, but both of them put together is probably easier and cheaper than using DX alone, i'm not convinced DX12 will fix the problems inherent to it.

There is no need for Microsoft and DX, AMD have proven they can make a much better one without Microsoft, i'm sure Nvidia could too.

What do you think of that?

 

[Orangey]

A year ago there was no DX12, if AMD weren't told then it probably didn't exist, their architectures have to meet DX spec and take years to design. So they have to be clued in.

 

[Final8y]

This whole thought process of "Mantle kickstarted DX12's development" is a bunch of sissy nonsense to soften the blow for those with obsessive compulsive purchase justification syndrome.

I dont think there is anyone in this thread that bought AMD because of Mantle, price and performance ratio is the reason, Mantle is a free extra that does not need purchase justification when the price of the cards are on average cheaper so no purchase justification needed which is what usually happens when people pay a premium.

 

[tommybhoy]

As reported by CVG, according to a blog post published by Action = Reaction Labs CTO Promit Roy, who has previously worked at Microsoft, Nvidia and Day 1 Studios, said that in the e-mail Microsoft confirmed that it will retire the framework from its MVP Award Program.

In the e-mail Microsoft also states that DirectX is “no longer evolving as a technology” and that XNA Game Studio is "not in active development", and as a result XNA would be axed as of April 1st 2014.

The move raises questions about Microsoft’s future involvement with its DirectX tech in future.

Original cat out of the bag article:

http://ventspace.wordpress.com/2013/01/30/directxxna-phase-out-continues/

Promit Roy then got a severe knuckle rattling from MS for letting the cat out of the bag and then carefully worded a reply:

http://ventspace.wordpress.com/2013/01/31/follow-up-on-directxxna/



What is getting conveniently forgotten is that W8 initially was taking us down a completely different forced route(everyone was cracking up and ******** themselves that gaming was doomed-look what Gabe did), then the u-turn happened when the projections/stubbornness of Steven Sinofsky went **** up, what happened to him???

Then the Xbone gets a whipping from Sony, it needs more power, and the naive here think Nvidia are the ones behind getting right into the metal of GCN and AMD weren't/aren't involved from the start...



You must be rolling about too Marine.

 

[humbug]

Microsoft does not want the PC Gaming too get to far ahead of its more profitable xBox eco system, this is why MS has improved their Console API over these 10 years while DirectX has remained in a pretty much untouched and in a bad state.

This has not changed, what has changed is MS are coming to realise that that they are loosing thier monopoly on the PC Gaming API which has enabled them to keep PC Gaming stuck in 2002, MS blame AMD for this and see Mantle as a real threat.

Hence all the noise.

But the real crime, 'In My Opinion' is Nvidia and their very loud support for Microsoft and DirectX because in some perverse way Nvidia also see AMD as the enamy.

What Nvidia should be doing is joining forces with AMD to break Microsofts API monopoly.

Microsoft deliberately make developing games on the PC a hard chew and expensive in a bid to ween Game Developers away from the PC.

Nvidia are just perpetuating that Microsoft rhetoric.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

What I don't understand is the negativity in general from a lot(not all) of the Nvidia guys regarding Mantle.

Mantle so faar hasn't fragmented gaming as it has nothing extra over DX apart from performance, there is ZERO AMD exclusive gpu features of yet.

Mantle and to a lesser extent Steam OS and ogl has pushed MS to make future gaming better-we all win.



Yes.

Last year, AMD stated there was no DX12 in development or in the pipeline, as AMD WILL be under nda, if there was anything happening at that time, they could not have made that comment.

MS have had no option to get off their **** and create DX12 after Mantle, big names have stated DX is very close to Mantle, my guess is AMD/Nvidia/MS are actually working closer together than we think as they ALL stand to gain from a better api.

Likewise I don't understand all the negativity from (what seems to be) AMD users with regards to DirectX. All this talk of Microsoft holding things back for years, was there some law stopping anyone else making a better API until now?
If Microsoft were holding PC gaming back, who was doing a better job? Apple? Linux? Who are we comparing Microsoft to here?

Like Nvidia has been doing for many years, did you complain about Nvidia's lockout mentality fragmenting gaming?

No, because as long as Nvidia have all the tech its all good.

AMD gave developers exactly what they asked for, had that been Nvidia i think you would have been singing a very different tune.

I also wonder what attitudes would have been like if Mantle was an Nvidia API. Would AMD users be praising it so much or moaning about it being locked and nothing special?

 

[Final8y]

Likewise I don't understand all the negativity from (what seems to be) AMD users with regards to DirectX. All this talk of Microsoft holding things back for years, was there some law stopping anyone else making a better API until now?
If Microsoft were holding PC gaming back, who was doing a better job? Apple? Linux? Who are we comparing Microsoft to here?



I also wonder what attitudes would have been like if Mantle was an Nvidia API. Would AMD users be praising it so much or moaning about it being locked and nothing special?

Holding back is not exclusive in relation to others which you have just implied, the existence of others trying or not is not a requirement for the term holding back to apply to multiples or a single eternity or entities, be it a person/persons or a company/companies not doing everything that they could have at the time.

 

[tommybhoy]

Likewise I don't understand all the negativity from (what seems to be) AMD users with regards to DirectX. All this talk of Microsoft holding things back for years, was there some law stopping anyone else making a better API until now?
If Microsoft were holding PC gaming back, who was doing a better job? Apple? Linux? Who are we comparing Microsoft to here?

Comparing MS with MS in regards to gaming-pushing console gaming and what feels like 'forgetting' PC gamers, and will(hopefully they will) MS deliver?

When historically they promise PC gamers they are committed, and don't deliver -that's where my negativity ends, I want DX12 to deliver, I truly do, the same as I want SteamOS to deliver in the long run, to push MS forwards and not push PC gaming to the side, Mantle is fantastic, it's a different ballgame in output delivery, and I want that type of delivery in all my games, not some of them.

I also wonder what attitudes would have been like if Mantle was an Nvidia API. Would AMD users be praising it so much or moaning about it being locked and nothing special?

Ofc AMD users wouldn't be praising it if it was Nvidia, there's a stark difference to praising and saying it's ****/pointless though, that was a daft one, Nvidia have been using nvapi for years now, which has been giving a comparative boost and a better delivery in certain titles, AMD users haven't moaned about that to anywhere near the extent, the backlash from Nvidia users is part 'shoe on the other foot'-they can't use it-realise it sucks big time when a feature can't be accessed on their gpu's, and part payback for the negativity towards Nvidia's proprietary tech.

I'll also add that my only negativity towards PhysX is solely aimed at the lockout enforced(written in at the driver level) to block it rendering on Nvidia when AMD gpu is present-PhysX is a great feature imo, but performance/price ratio far outweighs the often hefty premium asked for comparative/slower performance.