Firaxis discusses why Mantle is revolutionary for their work with Civilization: Beyond Earth

[PhysicsMan94]

So are you saying because MS has been the industry standard for years we all just have to like and lump it.

It's been the industry standard for all these years because it's actually pretty damn good given that it is a generalised API which needs to be coded with a lot of different hardware configurations in mind.

If that's the case then nobody can say it's proprietary as it will then be up to the others to support it or not.

How can others support it when the API itself has been coded specifically for the GCN architecture? Sure they can expand their support to other GPU architectures but that would basically just make it the same as DirectX (and likely not as good), so what's the point?

 

[humbug]

Oh come on, it'd be impossible to make it as efficient as it'll be in consoles because they're a set piece of hardware, PC's are far from it.

Which is why DX12 simply cannot be what Mantle is.

PhysicsMan may disagree again but i still think Nvidia should get off the DX12 Hype train and make their own Mantle.

Microsoft need to have their API monopoly shattered, its what most Developers want, its what most of us want. AMD can't do it on their own, they / we need Nvidia to get on the right side.

 

[Gregster]

So are you saying because MS has been the industry standard for years we all just have to like and lump it. People keep talking about mantle like has been around for years but its only been around in games since January. yes it's only on GCN atm as a starting base but are we forgetting that AMD have stated it will be released at some point this year. If that's the case then nobody can say it's proprietary as it will then be up to the others to support it or not. The games it's been used in so far show promise but Mantle was only really a patch add in. By the looks of it games like Civ 6 and Star Citizen will show it in a better light.

Not at all but what choice was there and did people seriously moan before mantle? I certainly didn't and in fairness, I didn't know any different, so was quite happy. From what I have seen of Mantle, it is a very good thing and works well. The problem is and sounding selfish i guess, DX also works well for me and I don't have any issues to speak of.

It isn't always the fault of DX either. take game devs for example....CF/SLI support can be slow at times and even when it is working, scaling is poor but is that the fault of DX or the devs?

 

[Martini1991]

No one API will do what you people want it to, Nvidia jumping onto Mantle isn't going to be the answer, as it can't be "that simple" as shown by the 7XXX not working correctly with Mantle.

DX12 will be the best of a bad situation more than likely.

I don't think it'll be as efficient as Mantle is with GCN cards, but I don't think anyone's making those claims.

Also, what happened to "DX12 IS MANTLE"

 

[layte]

Microsoft need to have their API monopoly shattered, its what most Developers want, its what most of us want. AMD can't do it on their own, they / we need Nvidia to get on the right side.

This I can't help but agree with. But what it needs is something vendor neutral. Because as long as AMD hold the keys to that particular castle things will stay exactly as they are.

 

[Marine-RX179]

Oh come on, it'd be impossible to make it as efficient as it'll be in consoles because they're a set piece of hardware, PC's are far from it.

I genuinely forgotten about that part, for that I do apologise.

 

[TheRealDeal]

It's been the industry standard for all these years because it's actually pretty damn good given that it is a generalised API which needs to be coded with a lot of different hardware configurations in mind.



How can others support it when the API itself has been coded specifically for the GCN architecture? Sure they can expand their support to other GPU architectures but that would basically just make it the same as DirectX (and likely not as good), so what's the point?

It's not soley designed just for GCN and AMD have said as much. GCN is the starting architecture. Do you think GCN will stay the same forever?. AMD said Mantle was wrote with the future and other companies Architecture's in Mind. I don't know how it would run on Nvidia for instance but if it was to run better than on dx then it's still better than dx. AMD cpu and a Titan on mantle would probably see huge gains like GCN does.

I believe Direct X became the standard due to dirty tactics from Microsoft as dx was not as good as Open Gl back in the day.

Not at all but what choice was there and did people seriously moan before mantle? I certainly didn't and in fairness, I didn't know any different, so was quite happy. From what I have seen of Mantle, it is a very good thing and works well. The problem is and sounding selfish i guess, DX also works well for me and I don't have any issues to speak of.

It isn't always the fault of DX either. take game devs for example....CF/SLI support can be slow at times and even when it is working, scaling is poor but is that the fault of DX or the devs?

People on here have been moaning about DX for years. I would say it started mainly around when dx10 came around and was just rubbish.

 

[Gregster]

Which is why DX12 simply cannot be what Mantle is.

PhysicsMan may disagree again but i still think Nvidia should get off the DX12 Hype train and make their own Mantle.

Microsoft need to have their API monopoly shattered, its what most Developers want, its what most of us want. AMD can't do it on their own, they / we need Nvidia to get on the right side.

DX12 will cater for ALL DX12 enabled GPUs and not the select few, so I wouldn't expect it to be as efficient as Mantle. Mantle only has to cater for GCN cards but when you start to bring other GPUs into it, things will start to get messy very quickly.

Not sure why you keep on at Physicsman either. Stop goading him please.

 

[Gregster]

It's not soley designed just for GCN and AMD have said as much. GCN is the starting architecture. Do you think GCN will stay the same forever?. AMD said Mantle was wrote with the future and other companies Architecture's in Mind. I don't know how it would run on Nvidia for instance but if it was to run better than on dx then it's still better than dx. AMD cpu and a Titan on mantle would probably see huge gains like GCN does.

I believe Direct X became the standard due to dirty tactics from Microsoft as dx was not as good as Open Gl back in the day.

So will AMD be looking after the HD6 and 5 series cards as well?

 

[Martini1991]

I genuinely forgotten about that part, for that I do apologise.

MS bashing takes priority over logic and reason.

 

[D.P.]

Like Nvidia has been doing for many years, did you complain about Nvidia's lockout mentality fragmenting gaming?

No, because as long as Nvidia have all the tech its all good.

AMD gave developers exactly what they asked for, had that been Nvidia i think you would have been singing a very different tune.

A closed source fragmented single architecture API was the last thing that developers wanted, unless they received significant money to speak AMD marketing spiel.

What developers want is a cross platform API with reduced CPU overhead, something like a revision to OGL.


The last thing developers want is to go back nearly 20 years and have to design specific code paths for 3DFX GLIDE running on voodoo hardware, S3 metal code path running on S3 hardware, and OGL running on the rest.

Fragmenting the industry standards with architecture specific APIs is not the future. Mantle is not really scalable within AMD ecosystem, every time they release a new architecture a lot of resources will have to go into extending mantle and over time mantle won't really offer any advantages over OGL or DX.


It's 2014, not 1997. Time to forget about hardware specific APIs. Developers hated them back them and will hate them even more now. If developers really cared about the CPU cost where they would voluntarily swap APIs they would already be using OGL and not DX and have significant gain.

 

[TheRealDeal]

So will AMD be looking after the HD6 and 5 series cards as well?

There was something said about this not so long back but that i can't Answer. It's far to early to tell where Mantle is going but we all know its better than DX.

 

[Martini1991]

It's not soley designed just for GCN and AMD have said as much. GCN is the starting architecture. Do you think GCN will stay the same forever?. AMD said Mantle was wrote with the future and other companies Architecture's in Mind. I don't know how it would run on Nvidia for instance but if it was to run better than on dx then it's still better than dx. AMD cpu and a Titan on mantle would probably see huge gains like GCN does.

The reality is playing out different to AMD's spiel, and no one is really surprised, except people are just downplaying it.

Mantle as it stands, is arguably only fully functional on GCN 2.0 cards, so that puts the only nail required in the "It's easy, everyone can join in" propaganda.

 

[TheRealDeal]

The reality is playing out different to AMD's spiel, and no one is really surprised, except people are just downplaying it.

Mantle as it stands, is arguably only fully functional on GCN 2.0 cards, so that puts the only nail required in the "It's easy, everyone can join in" propaganda.

In what way? I believe Crytek just jumped on board and along with the other engine's it's playing out pretty well so far.

I think you mean there's teething problems on an early Alpha/Beta version. Is there any surprise there? Most games that are released on dx these days are Buggy as hell and most likely still in the Beta phase. Would you say the DX version of BF4 is a master piece.

 

[humbug]

Also, what happened to "DX12 IS MANTLE"

Same GCN architecture in the XB1 is why that came about, it makes sense, even if its not a copy, which it probably isn't, its based on exactly the same Hardware architecture, so in Darwin terms its not from the same Gene Pool but it is evolving in the same climate.

It will share similarities to Mantle, though i think it will be a poor cousin.

A closed source fragmented single architecture API was the last thing that developers wanted, unless they received significant money to speak AMD marketing spiel.

What developers want is a cross platform API with reduced CPU overhead, something like a revision to OGL.


The last thing developers want is to go back nearly 20 years and have to design specific code paths for 3DFX GLIDE running on voodoo hardware, S3 metal code path running on S3 hardware, and OGL running on the rest.

Fragmenting the industry standards with architecture specific APIs is not the future. Mantle is not really scalable within AMD ecosystem, every time they release a new architecture a lot of resources will have to go into extending mantle and over time mantle won't really offer any advantages over OGL or DX.


It's 2014, not 1997. Time to forget about hardware specific APIs. Developers hated them back them and will hate them even more now. If developers really cared about the CPU cost where they would voluntarily swap APIs they would already be using OGL and not DX and have significant gain.

Don't take my word for it, Look at what Developers say about it.

 

[D.P.]

Which is why DX12 simply cannot be what Mantle is.

PhysicsMan may disagree again but i still think Nvidia should get off the DX12 Hype train and make their own Mantle.

Microsoft need to have their API monopoly shattered, its what most Developers want, its what most of us want. AMD can't do it on their own, they / we need Nvidia to get on the right side.

No, developers like coding for a single API. The last thing they want is to double the development time of their rendering pipeline.

And there is no monopoly. OpenGL supports all the features of a DX, is more extensible and is faster.

 

[Martini1991]

In what way? I believe Crytek just jumped on board and along with the other engine's it's playing out pretty well so far.

I think you mean there's teething problems on an early Alpha/Beta version. Is there any surprise there? Most games that are released on dx these days are Buggy as hell and most likely still in the Beta phase. Would you say the DX version of BF4 is a master piece.

I'm on about hardware compatibility, it's still only truly viable on two SKU's, and because of that fact, you can bet your arse it's not going to be simple for Nvidia to just "adopt it"

 

[TheRealDeal]

I'm on about hardware compatibility, it's still only truly viable on two SKU's, and because of that fact, you can bet your arse it's not going to be simple for Nvidia to just "adopt it"

I think it's to early to tell. Remember Mantle is just patched in to these games over a period of 3-4 months with one guy working on it. I think we need to see games that have been developed over a longer time frame with more effort put in to see how it goes.

 

[Martini1991]

Also, what does Mantle offer in the way of IQ improvements?

 

[Marine-RX179]

MS bashing takes priority over logic and reason.

But M$ does deserve the bashing though

I bashed them not because of personal hate toward them, but because of they are clearly neglecting in looking after the PC users.