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Why 'Watch Dogs' Is Bad News For AMD Users -- And Potentially The Entire PC Gaming Ecosystem

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LtMatt

LtMatt

LtMatt

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Potentially dark days ahead. :(

Gameworks represents a clear and present threat to gamers by deliberately crippling performance on AMD products (40% of the market) to widen the margin in favor of NVIDIA products,” Hallock told me in an email conversation over the weekend. But wait, it stands to reason that AMD would be miffed over a competitor having the edge when it comes to graphical fidelity and features, right? Hallock explains that the core problem is deeper: “Participation in the Gameworks program often precludes the developer from accepting AMD suggestions that would improve performance directly in the game code—the most desirable form of optimization.”

So a partner studio like Ubisoft can suggest or write enhancements to the GameWorks libraries, but AMD isn’t allowed to see those changes or suggest their own.

“The code obfuscation makes it difficult to perform our own after-the-fact driver optimizations, as the characteristics of the game are hidden behind many layers of circuitous and non-obvious routines,” Hallock continues. “This change coincides with NVIDIA’s decision to remove all public Direct3D code samples from their site in favor of a ‘contact us for licensing’ page. AMD does not engage in, support, or condone such activities.”
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I asked Robert Hallock about this specifically, and he explains that they had “very limited time with the title and [we've] been able to implement some respectable performance improvements thanks to the skill of our driver engineers. Careful performance analysis with a variety of internal tools have allowed us to profile this title, despite deliberate obfuscation attempts, to improve the experience for users.”

AMD will release a new driver to the public this week which reflects those improvements. (It’s the same driver I conducted my testing with.) Unfortunately my conversation with Hallock didn’t end with a silver lining: “I am uncertain if we will be able to achieve additional gains due to the unfortunate practices of the Gameworks program,” he remarked.

Tech journalist Joel Hruska of ExtremeTech summarized why Nvidia’s GameWorks could end up providing a poor experience for consumers and potentially dangerous long-term obstacles for developers, in a stellar investigative piece he wrote last year:

“AMD is no longer in control of its own performance. While GameWorks doesn’t technically lock vendors into Nvidia solutions, a developer that wanted to support both companies equally would have to work with AMD and Nvidia from the beginning of the development cycle to create a vendor-specific code path. It’s impossible for AMD to provide a quick after-launch fix. This kind of maneuver ultimately hurts developers in the guise of helping them.”
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8oGSVHE.png


Full Article
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonev...d-potentially-the-entire-pc-gaming-ecosystem/


Watch Dogs: Analyzing the impact of Nvidia’s GameWorks integration and AMD performance

I’ve expressed my views and concerns on GameWorks in two past articles; I’m not going to rehash them here. What I will note is that Nvidia’s decision to create a set of closed libraries that developers can’t share with AMD, combined with developer decisions on whether or not to collaborate with AMD on substantive driver improvements in other areas, have created a scenario in which every GW title must be scrutinized to determine if it treats AMD GPUs fairly (to the extent that this is possible).

Much has been written on whether or not Mantle should be viewed as equivalent to GameWorks, and indeed, it’s true that AMD’s DX11 performance relative to Nvidia’s has been somewhat lower in Battlefield 4 and Thief. That’s something I’ve called on AMD to fix — I think the fact that HD 6000 series users or GCN (Graphics Core Next) users who don’t want to use Mantle don’t get fully optimized DX11 performance is problematic.

Watch Dogs wallpaper

The difference here is one of size and scope. Now that GameWorks is embedded in the Unreal 4 engine, it could impact AMD’s competitive performance for years to come. Mantle, in contrast, is shipping in a relative handful of titles. Furthermore, there’s zero evidence that developers who have embraced Mantle are doing so in a manner that would impact Nvidia’s DX11 performance in any way. Some have argued that because AMD can still perform indirect optimization on GW titles, the impact of the program is meaningless — but this ignores the fact that the vast majority of performance profiling in any given game occurs within weeks of its release. If AMD (or Nvidia) can’t push out an optimized driver in a very small window, the majority of game reviews will show a decided advantage for the home player. Only those games incorporated widely into GPU reviews will show the benefit of iterative driver updates.
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Full Article
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/1...s-gameworks-integration-and-amd-performance/2
 
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Tbh im not that keen on the idea of theese things like gameworks, (or whatever amd's equivalent is). Be much better for everyone to have a level playing field.
 
I'll get the salt bucket.

No way no how is a 2GB 770 holding ultra textures over 1080p, even with all levels of AA disabled it still pushes 2.5GB+
 
MrMoonX said:
But AMD do this with games too, so what's new?
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No they don't mate. AMD don't have any black box libraries like GameWorks. Before anyone says Mantle, that does not affect Nvidia DX driver optimization and is nothing to do with DX11 libraries.

I'm sure most people remember my previous GameWorks threads. I (along with Joel) copped plenty of stick for posting them, but just incase anyone wants a catch up ill link them below.

Respected Game Developers Prefer GCN Programming Documentation Over GameWorks “black boxes”
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18592187&highlight=gameworks+username_LtMatt

Balkanized Gaming - Mantle & GameWorks
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18588191&highlight=gameworks+username_LtMatt

Nvidia’s GameWorks program usurps power from developers, end-users, and AMD
http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18567859&highlight=gameworks+username_LtMatt
 
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Another AMD fanboy journo.......

Oh, wait a minute-
[Fanboy deflection: I own a wide variety of Nvidia hardware and a G-Sync monitor, and am a vocal proponent of products like Shield and software like ShadowPlay. I simply believe this could be bad for the industry in the long run.]
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I bought a 670 partly because of this reason(at the end of the day I just want to play games with all their features regardless the vendor), but good old Nvidia won't allow PhysX deployment through my 670 because I choose to run Mantle/TA through my 290 in the same rig.

Nvidia all for the gamer-NOT.:o
 
Tonester0011 said:
Not another one of these :o
Are we going to get one of these threads everytime a Nvidia TWIMTBP/Gameworks title comes round?
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I'm afraid so. It may make uncomfortable reading for some, regardless of your gpu vendor preference but its an interesting topic and something i hope we see less of. If we do, then you'll see less of these threads i can promise you. If you can't hack it, best stay out. These threads aren't for the faint hearted, just look at the previous ones. :p
 
LtMatt said:
I'm afraid so. It may make uncomfortable reading for some, regardless of your gpu vendor preference but its an interesting topic and something i hope we see less of. If we do, then you'll see less of these threads i can promise you. If you can't hack it, best stay out. These threads aren't for the faint hearted, just look at the previous ones. :p
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Please tell me that was an intentional pun given the game this thread is centred around :p
 
LtMatt said:
I'm afraid so. It may make uncomfortable reading for some, regardless of your gpu vendor preference but its an interesting topic and something i hope we see less of. If we do, then you'll see less of these threads i can promise you. If you can't hack it, best stay out. These threads aren't for the faint hearted, just look at the previous ones. :p
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LOL :D
Well, i'll be reading for the arguments ;) Just wont be joining in :p
 
All of you agreeing with it should be equally ashamed.

I've no problem with the thread content or subject but come on - personal attacks and/or agreeing with those personal attacks is never going to be right.
 
pgi947 said:
Please tell me that was an intentional pun given the game this thread is centred around :p
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Lol. I wish it was, im just not that clever im afraid. :p

And on that note, im being summoned. Looking forward to seeing where this thread has gone tomorrow morning. :D
 
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