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Why 'Watch Dogs' Is Bad News For AMD Users -- And Potentially The Entire PC Gaming Ecosystem
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Soldato
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It isnt, but it also isnt strictly speaking off topic, as both gameworks and mantle have the same effective end result, which is a perceived perforjance advantage for the home team, with AMD claiming they cant optimise their own dx11 drivers without source code, whilst at the same time saying that Nvidia will be able to write mantle drivers without access to mantle source code or any effort from AMD to make mantle compatible with nvidia hardware
So which is it?
Everytime we post up that AMD is talking cobblers, matt feels the need to jump to their defence, so the thread keeps going round in circles
For some reason, matt thinks that posting a "funny" gif makes him right, even when he has no direct first hand experience of software development
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Got a source for that andy?
We'll see about that. I will put your question specifically to him, though i believe he has already answered it in the first quotes.
Yes, back on topic.
Pcper with an interesting and fair take on both sides of the argument. Backing up some of both sides claims.
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Editor...t-over-NVIDIA-GameWorks-Program-Devil-Details
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Soldato
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Techreport
AMD's hullabaloo about gameworks is that they cant optimise without source code, yet in thracks quotes he is suggesting that Nvidia will be able to write mantle drivers without source code, only the public sdk...
You making it up as you go along andy?
Soldato
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So Microsoft do absolutely no work with hardware vendors? They just write dx in isolation and then tell the hardware vendors, there it is, take it or leave it?
No, both AMD and Nvidia work closely with MS to get features added and amended
Also, matt, from the pc per article;
In the case of Watch_Dogs, only HBAO+ was integrated from GameWorks and runs on both AMD and NVIDIA hardware and as we have mentioned before, the performance difference between the two GPU vendors in that feature is close to zero. Thus, we can state that the performance differences between AMD and NVIDIA hardware on Watch_Dogs today is not due to the implementation of GameWorks technology.
I'll ask again in case you missed it:
You making it up as you go along andy?
You can save the rest of the deflection as I have had zero opinion in this thread in regards to WD GW implementation.
You making it up as you go along andy?
You can save the rest of the deflection as I have had zero opinion in this thread in regards to WD GW implementation.
I made this point a few times at the beginning: where do you draw the line at what is just bad optimisation from AMD and what is due to GameWorks. And even if performance with a GW feature is enabled is shocking then surely just turn it off again?
It seems to me that there's a lot of flak being directed at the wrong people. I'm not saying nVidia are completely free from blame but people here aren't qualified or weren't involved enough to make the call that it is nVidia's fault that performance is poor. To me, IMO, it looks like two things.
a) poor optimisation from AMD
b) a buggy release from the game dev
Just because bob and harry day GW is bad on twitter doesn't mean that translates to tangible performance drop offs for AMD users.
Edit: looks like this is aimed at you. It isn't, I was just following on from your point
Thracks has already stated Mantle has a thin abstraction layer and it can work with any dx11/dx12 hardware regardless of vendor. He also said "Further adoption beyond that point would be limited only by a hardware vendor's willingness to do so." So it will be up to Nvidia once it leaves the closed beta. It seems pretty clear. Are you saying that you know more about Mantle than AMD andy? As we've seen, you were wrong about GameWorks so you're probably wrong about this as well.
Speaking of GameWorks and your previous postings in other threads... so you were completely wrong before then when you defended GameWorks to the hilt. Now we have Nvidia admitting it was true, prior to mid April.
No, but we're on the final chapter i suspect.
So to sum everything up:
1: Nvidia and AMD are both corporations who care about money not consumers, not to be confused with charitable organisations striving to make the world better for mankind.
2: Both engage in nefarious and underhanded business tactics to try and get one up on each other and appear better to the consumer.
3: Games made by devs buddied up with one vendor will run better on that vendors hardware at launch, and this may not always be fixable via driver optimization.
So..... basically the same situation we've been in since the fall of 3DFX
1: Nvidia and AMD are both corporations who care about money not consumers, not to be confused with charitable organisations striving to make the world better for mankind.
2: Both engage in nefarious and underhanded business tactics to try and get one up on each other and appear better to the consumer.
3: Games made by devs buddied up with one vendor will run better on that vendors hardware at launch, and this may not always be fixable via driver optimization.
So..... basically the same situation we've been in since the fall of 3DFX
Soldato
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Speaking of GameWorks and your previous postings in other threads... so you were completely wrong before then when you defended GameWorks to the hilt. Now we have Nvidia admitting it was true, prior to mid April.
Nope, I've always said that AMD can optimise their drivers without source code, which is still true (AMD saying that nvidia can write mantle drivers without source code is compelling evidence for that surely?)
I've never said that game developers don't skew their performance if a particular brand is sponsoring the game, it is equally true for both AMD and Nvidia sponsored games, what I have said is that if you turn off a gameworks feature, the game doesn't suddenly un-skew, so as your own articles show, gameworks libraries themselves are not responsible, what else the developer does in terms of optimisation or not is up to the developer, clearly if they decide to hobble a manufacturer in their own game then the developer deserves a certain amount of criticism,
I also quoted articles that said that source code was available to developers if they so chose to ask for access, which is also true, it might not have been at some indeterminate point in the past, but as of today and going forwards, it is true
AMD also claimed that nvidia removed any and all code examples from their website, which has also been shown to not be true, they just couldn't be bothered to update their bookmarks
I openly criticise ubisoft over watch dogs because it runs like gash on my intel/nvidia PC... I don't blame AMD for that though
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I think he is.
I think that what I read about DX12 and Mantle is as well however I also think your claiming facts based on your own presumptions and when your given a reply that disagrees with your claims that your unable to counter you choose to ignore it or claim that all that needs to be said has been said and focus on easier targets. You seem to love a discussion as long as it goes your way.
I'm just going on what Thracks has said seeing as he knows Mantle a lot better than andybird does.
So are you saying that AMD, Thracks, not to mention Johan Andersson, Bart Wronski, Dan Baker, all highly respected game developers who helped created Mantle, and have all worked with it are all lying when they say Mantle can work on ANY DX11/12 capable hardware? Why would everyone be lying about it and making that information so publicly available? I had this same debate with Physics man why would they lie? After Thracks responses to his questions his outlook on things seemed to change completely in that thread. But i guess theres no convincing some.
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Nice false extrapolation. I didn't even come close to speaking along those lines. I think you need to calm down .
No, but what I'm saying is that it's his job to make things appear favourably for AMD. As it is other developers who are part of the Mantle program. So it just pays to be careful when listening to what they're saying and not disregard everything else said.
. No, but what I'm saying is that it's his job to make things appear favourably for AMD. As it is other developers who are part of the Mantle program. So it just pays to be careful when listening to what they're saying and not disregard everything else said.
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