Why 'Watch Dogs' Is Bad News For AMD Users -- And Potentially The Entire PC Gaming Ecosystem

[tommybhoy]

The claims made in early April by the quoted game developers seem completely accurate now, and it took the pressure of the community to push NVIDIA to open up GameWorks.

In my opinion, after talking with a bunch of different people on the matter, I think there was probably some merit to AMD’s claims of a “lock out” with NVIDIA’s GameWorks toolset at the outset of the program.

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Editor...eWorks-Program-Devil-Details/NVIDIAs-Response

Hopefully it's done and dusted now.

You making it up as you go along andy?

^
That's right on the money then.

 

[andybird123]

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Editor...eWorks-Program-Devil-Details/NVIDIAs-Response

Hopefully it's done and dusted now.



^
That's right on the money then.

The main point is that "AMD cant optomise without source code", even the instigator of the entire story has now admitted that this isnt the case, so yes, it is done and dusted

The level of access to source code is a tertiary argument, as is nvidia "removing" access to code examples, neither point is proof regarding the main issue

 

[tommybhoy]

Your missing the point, I never once embroiled on who did/didn't yada yada, simply forwarding opinion that it should be the end of it.

Disclaimer***rest assured I never fabricated any of that.***

 

[Marine-RX179]

I don't think they are lying, more perverting the truth, so Mantle can work on any DX11/12 hardware, great, so can PhysX, but at the moment PhysX needs CUDA and Mantle needs GCN, and Nvidia are about as likely to take up Mantle as AMD were to take up PhysX.

Both vendors can say till their blue in the face that they are open to other vendors using their tech, but in reality they both know that would never happen as nobody want's to be in that situation.

Psss...Physx It wouldn't even work on Nvidia card when an AMD GPU is in the same PC. Someone made a crack for hybrid which clearly proved that PhysX doesn't not require a Nvidia card as main but having one as dedicated PhysX card would work. It was locked out by intent at software level, and Nvidia sent the guy a threatening letter to stop him doing what he's doing (which was helping people that actually PAID money to Nvidia and OWN Nvidia cards to use a feature which they deserved), and this is all history now and has already happened.

Mantle on the other hand, how it's going work out is still remained to be seen. It's far too soon to say it is locked out other vendors with intent like how PhysX is. Saying that now is based purely on assumptions and opinion without actual evidences to back it up.

My take on this is criticise Mantle for what IT IS after the public SDK is released if there's good reasons for doing so, not before it is actually released and criticise it based on what you THINK it's gonna be like.

 

[LtMatt]

Psss...Physx It wouldn't even work on Nvidia card when an AMD GPU is in the same PC. Someone made a crack for hybrid which clearly proved that PhysX doesn't not require a Nvidia card as main to work, and it was locked out by intent, and Nvidia sent the guy a threatening letter to stop him doing what he's doing (which is helping people that actually PAID money on the Nvidia card to use a feature which they deserved), and this is all history now and has already happened.

Mantle on the other hand, how it's going work out is still remained to be seen. It's far too soon to say it is locked out other vendors like how PhysX...saying that now is based purely on assumption and opinion without actual evidence to back it up.

My take on this is criticise Mantle for what IT IS after the public SDK is released if it there's reasons for doing so, not before it is actually released and criticise it based on what you THINK it's gonna be like.

Stop speaking common sense, you'll annoy the locals.

 

[PhysicsMan94]

I had this same debate with Physics man why would they lie? After Thracks responses to his questions his outlook on things seemed to change completely in that thread. But i guess theres no convincing some.

That's because I'm a scientist and I'd be a rather awful one if I saw solid evidence for some hypothesis and dismissed it, that's not to say that I am in line with Thracks' claims just yet however given that I'll need to actually see how Mantle evolves in the coming months and whether this evolution adheres to Thracks' statements; observational evidence trumps all of course.

With regards to your last statement above, that is quite apt for this thread due to your static position regarding this whole topic despite several members posting evidence against this "sabotage" affair. A neutral observer would likely draw a conclusion that you are one of those people who cannot be convinced, due to very strong brand loyalty it would seem.

 

[ubersonic]

With regards to your last statement above, that is quite apt for this thread due to your static position regarding this whole topic despite several members posting evidence against this "sabotage" affair. A neutral observer would likely draw a conclusion that you are one of those people who cannot be convinced, due to very strong brand loyalty it would seem.

 

[LtMatt]

With regards to your last statement above, that is quite apt for this thread due to your static position regarding this whole topic despite several members posting evidence against this "sabotage" affair. A neutral observer would likely draw a conclusion that you are one of those people who cannot be convinced, due to very strong brand loyalty it would seem.

Well Nvidia have already admitted to the lock out, they say so in the interview i linked to a few pages back. Even Ryan Shrout agreed that AMD had a case not to mention other tech journalists that have reported on this. That's good enough for me. The good thing is because of this pressure from the community, from AMD and tech journalists GameWorks is changing how they do things. I see this as a good thing going forward and hopefully we can all move on. Time will tell. That's my final say on it, rightly or wrongly (i will let others debate this until the cows come home ) for now anyway.

 

[Rusty0611]

I could kind of understand it a little more if they were locked out and performance was gimped as a result. But PCPer showed no more of a drop off using GW effects than the equivalent nVidia card. Isn't that what all this is about? So the comparatively poor performance looks to be the game and AMD not quite getting optimised as much as they probably can.

Boohoo AMD / nVidia don't get access at the same times for the other companies sponsored games.

 

[humbug]

I could kind of understand it a little more if they were locked out and performance was gimped as a result. But PCPer showed no more of a drop off using GW effects than the equivalent nVidia card. Isn't that what all this is about? So the comparatively poor performance looks to be the game and AMD not quite getting optimised as much as they probably can.

Boohoo AMD / nVidia don't get access at the same times for the other companies sponsored games.

lol, funny man Rusty

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

Just so I have this straight...
Thracks/AMD say something about Mantle, so it's right because AMD should know as they created it.
Nvidia say something about GameWorks, so it's probably lies as Nvidia are biased because they wrote it and will spin it in a positive way?

I also like the 'AMD people' calling for proof of Mantle multi-vendor support claims despite the fact this thread was founded on something without any proof.

I'm also interested in how Mantle is able to support all DX11/DX12 cards and at the same time not support the 6000 series AMD cards, that I believe are DX11 cards. I'm sure LtMatt can explain that one?

 

[LtMatt]

Just so I have this straight...
Thracks/AMD say something about Mantle, so it's right because AMD should know as they created it.
Nvidia say something about GameWorks, so it's probably lies as Nvidia are biased because they wrote it and will spin it in a positive way?

It does not help when you have multiple game devs and even ex-Nvidia employees going on record to talk negatively about GameWorks.

https://twitter.com/repi/status/452812842132332544

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

It does not help when you have multiple game devs and even Nvidia employees going on record to talk negatively about GameWorks.

https://twitter.com/repi/status/452812842132332544

I'm not up-to-date on Nvidia staff, which ones are Nvidia employees?

 

[LtMatt]

I'm not up-to-date on Nvidia staff, which ones are Nvidia employees?

·Timothy Lottes is ex-NVIDIA and now works at Epic (the author of TXAA).

·John Kloetzli is graphics programmer at Firaxis.

·Bart Wronski is graphics programmers at … UbiSoft

·Michal Drobot also works at UbiSoft

·Johan needs no intro.

According to that pcper article, GameWorks are changing how they do things now. Is that a result of all these articles and negative press? Maybe.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

·Timothy Lottes is ex-NVIDIA and now works at Epic (the author of TXAA).

·John Kloetzli is graphics programmer at Firaxis.

·Bart Wronski is graphics programmers at … UbiSoft

·Michal Drobot also works at UbiSoft

·Johan needs no intro.

So none of them?

 

[humbug]

·Timothy Lottes is ex-NVIDIA and now works at Epic (the author of TXAA).

·John Kloetzli is graphics programmer at Firaxis.

·Bart Wronski is graphics programmers at … UbiSoft

·Michal Drobot also works at UbiSoft

·Johan needs no intro.

According to that pcper article, GameWorks are changing how they do things now. Is that a result of all these articles and negative press? Maybe.

Intresting that even UbiSoft programmers are dissing Nvidia....

 

[mmj_uk]

Just so I have this straight...
Thracks/AMD say something about Mantle, so it's right because AMD should know as they created it.
Nvidia say something about GameWorks, so it's probably lies as Nvidia are biased because they wrote it and will spin it in a positive way?

That's exactly the way it is GoogalyMoogaly, in recent years AMD fanboys have taken fanboyism to a whole new level of fanaticism.

AMD = The force of good.
NVidia = The force of evil.

It's like GPU Jihad.

I sometimes wonder if they even play games or just like to spend all day promoting AMD and denouncing NVidia.

 

[GoogalyMoogaly]

Intresting that even UbiSoft programmers are dissing Nvidia....

Also interesting that only 5 developers are dissing Nvidia.
I'm pretty sure there are more than 5 developers in the world. Percentage-wise this may be insignificant.

 

[nashathedog]

I just read the article from Ryan at pcper, I found it interesting and relevant to what this thread was actually dealing with unlike the additional Mantle related posts.

However I do have a semi related query.

If a game is developed that uses a lot of gameworks features will that have any affect on Mantle compatibility for that game?

 

[LtMatt]

Just so I have this straight...
Thracks/AMD say something about Mantle, so it's right because AMD should know as they created it.
Nvidia say something about GameWorks, so it's probably lies as Nvidia are biased because they wrote it and will spin it in a positive way?

So none of them?

I'm not sure how long ago he left Nvidia.

Can you show me game devs who have said similar things about Mantle having used it? These developers have all used GameWorks, they know how it works. Or did work up until the recent change of heart.

Also interesting that only 5 developers are dissing Nvidia.
I'm pretty sure there are more than 5 developers in the world. Percentage-wise this may be insignificant.

Interesting that two of them are from Ubisoft though i think.