Gameworks, Mantle and a pot calling a kettle black

TheRealDeal · 12 Jun 2014 at 17:16

Tonester0011 said:
What was the test you need to do for AO? Got a crappy 4130 installed atm, so no idea how this weak CPU will effect the results.

Something about FXAA? Will wait for a response

No aa and then fxaa to see how big the hit is from fxaa. You could also do 8 x msaa for a full comparison.

Marine-RX179 · 12 Jun 2014 at 17:20

mmj_uk said:
NVidia are the good guys if you are a customer, like all of the reputable brands/manufacturers that people pay higher than average prices for they do everything they can to improve their customers experience.

Right...like people switching from Nvidia to AMD on their upgrade is a not counted as their customer, because they never spent money on buying the Nvidia card right? They punish the "traitors" that dares leaving the gang by disabling PhysX despite their existing Nvidia card CAN work as dedicated PhysX with an AMD card as primary, if not for the block they set up?

Martini1991 · 12 Jun 2014 at 17:25

I don't think anyone actually agrees that Nvidia's lock out of PhysX if there's an AMD card is a good thing. So using it as a rebuttal can get moot, because they're in agreement anyway

But mmj's comment there is far too blanket lol.

Marine-RX179 · 12 Jun 2014 at 17:28

Martini1991 said:
But mmj's comment there is far too blanket lol.

Same as his remark of Nvidia being more engaged with developers than AMD. Few years ago I would totally agree, but at the present, I wouldn't say such a blanket statement unless I got solid prove that is the case.

His claim of "NVidia charge more, release slightly less well specced cards but invest and put the work in behind the scenes to ensure that the money their customers have spent is rewarded with top compatiblity/performance" ironically contradict the performance and reliability of the games by Ubisoft, who is their biggest partner...

Just to make it clear, I never claim AMD's partner's games are reliable and perfect, it was him that bought up that point of being Nvidia's strength...

Gregster · 12 Jun 2014 at 17:34

Just to get back on topic, I forgot to mention what John McDonald had said and I can understand his frustration.

It is extremely frustrating to see an article criticizing work you did at a former employer and not being able to comment that the person who you are quoting from was just completely full of unsubstantiated [expletive]. Thanks, Forbes. . . . [A]nd while I never did, and certainly do not now, speak for nvidia, let me say that in the six years I was in devtech I *never*, not a single time, asked a developer to deny title access to AMD or to remove things that were beneficial to AMD.

And John's Bio:

John McDonald is a senior software engineer at NVIDIA Corporation. For the past six years, he has worked in developer technology, where he works with game developers on performance and functional issues in their titles. Prior to joining devtech, John helped design the 8xxx, 9xxx and gt2xx series of GPUs. Before coming to NVIDIA, John worked in the game industry on several titles, including the huge hit Command & Conquer: Generals. When not at work, John can be found spending time with his family or sculling his way down Lady Bird Lake in Austin, TX.

Tonester0011 · 12 Jun 2014 at 17:36

Right, don't know how much the 4130 effects this, though looking at GPU usage not a lot if any (mostly 99% usage)

Older 13.12 drivers, and overclocked to 1100/1350 (according to Lord Humbug, Titan beating performance)

AA - Off

FXAA- High

8xMSAA

Gregster · 12 Jun 2014 at 17:44

So 5 fps between FXAA and AA off.... Something up with that.

Rusty0611 · 12 Jun 2014 at 17:48

Is that a 290 Tone? Can do a 780 if you like then have a look at the respective drop offs in % terms.

PhysX off?

oldestgregg · 12 Jun 2014 at 17:49

Gregster said:
Just to get back on topic, I forgot to mention what John McDonald had said and I can understand his frustration.

And John's Bio:

John McDonald is a senior software engineer at NVIDIA Corporation. For the past six years, he has worked in developer technology, where he works with game developers on performance and functional issues in their titles. Prior to joining devtech, John helped design the 8xxx, 9xxx and gt2xx series of GPUs. Before coming to NVIDIA, John worked in the game industry on several titles, including the huge hit Command & Conquer: Generals. When not at work, John can be found spending time with his family or sculling his way down Lady Bird Lake in Austin, TX.

Honestly Greg,its depressing reading the utter tosh thrown about in this thread. Tin pot theories and outright nonsense. Why always "Vs"? Why does something have to fight something else in some kind of GPU super smash bros :confused:

edit- thats not aimed at you Greg,just linked your post because I liked it

Tonester0011 · 12 Jun 2014 at 17:50

Yes matey, 290.
The drop is so small i'm struggling to work out the percentage drop off

(3% give or take)

oldestgregg · 12 Jun 2014 at 17:51

PhysicsMan94 said:
Seems like my original predictions of AMD proponents desperately trying to find something to satisfy their anti-Nvidia needs were correct given the past few pages...

Well said good man

Rusty0611 · 12 Jun 2014 at 17:54

PhysX setting Tone?

Martini1991 · 12 Jun 2014 at 17:58

So then don't we have proof that it's not FXAA killing AMD? FXAA being one of the GW libraries.

I've just installed Batman now

Gregster · 12 Jun 2014 at 18:00

Did the same test as Tonester and nVidia are gimping the game for nVidia SLI users at 8XMSAA

no AA

FXAA-high

8XMSAA

Gulp!

Tonester0011 · 12 Jun 2014 at 18:05

Give or take, FXAA gives you the same performance hit Greg.
Bloody GW!! Always stealing FPS equally across both vendors, i wont stand for it.

CAT-THE-FIFTH · 12 Jun 2014 at 18:09

Martini1991 said:
But mmj's comment there is far too blanket lol.

He made it before though,so its a recurring theme!!

PS:

I never really got into the first of the newer Batman games. Worth persevering with them?? I got all of them outside the latest one.

I seem to be more a Borderlands and Metro fan.

Marine-RX179 · 12 Jun 2014 at 18:09

Martini1991 said:
So then don't we have proof that it's not FXAA killing AMD? FXAA being one of the GW libraries.

Ain't that just proving it is not "features" that can be enable/disabled that's killing AMD's performance?

I don't exactly recall people was specifically blaming the "features" of GameWorks for killing the performance, all it does prove the the "performance hit" "could" have already existed before FXAA even came into play.

I know some people insisting GameWorks won't do anymore other than the offering the specific features, but who know the truth about how does it exactly entangled with the core game itself?

Rusty0611 · 12 Jun 2014 at 18:13

Marine-RX179 said:
Ain't that just proving it is not "features" that can be enable/disabled that's killing AMD's performance?

I don't exactly recall people was specifically blaming the "features" of GameWorks for killing the performance, all it does prove the the "performance hit" "could" have already existed before FXAA even came into play.

I know some people insisting GameWorks won't do anymore other than the offering the specific features, but who know the truth about how does it exactly entangled with the core game itself?

GW is feature libraries. They can be turned on and off. If not using them there will be no impact on performance (unless proven otherwise) so any issues needs to fall at the feet of AMDs driver team.

Rusty0611 · 12 Jun 2014 at 18:19

Tonester's results:

AA - Off

FXAA- High

8xMSAA

Rusty's results:

AA - Off

FXAA - High

8xMSAA

So let us compare the relevant drop offs:

Moving from no AA to FXAA results in a 3.3% drop off in performance for Tonester's 290.

Moving from no AA to FXAA results in a 3.9% drop off in performance for Rusty's 780.

(a statistically insignificant difference)

The MSAA results are there too if anybody is interested but wanted to keep this to the issue of GW and FXAA isn't having more of a drop off for AMD users than it is nVidia users. So you can only summarise that the reviews from back in the day which showed a huge drop off comparatively for AMD users was because AMD had not optimised properly (be it GW or just the game in general).

Gregster · 12 Jun 2014 at 18:20

Tonester0011 said:
Give or take, FXAA gives you the same performance hit Greg.
Bloody GW!! Always stealing FPS equally across both vendors, i wont stand for it.

This whole debacle started because of Batman Arkham Origins and the guy at Extremetech was insistent that nVidia were using "Underhand tactics" to gimp performance on AMD hardware and was claiming a 770 was beating a 290. Clearly if that is happening, it isn't the GameWorks libraries at play or nVidia gimping or the devs refusing to allow AMD code but seems more a case of AMD and others wanting to see something that isn't there.

I had some shreddies this morning and I am sure I see Jesus in my milk, so must be true