Wheel Chair vs Pushchairs

[Schlong&Stable]

Why are you arguing in a thread which is essentially about equality then?

You might be looking at it through the lens of equality, but I am not. I consider this to be more an issue of people not respecting rules.

 

[Amp34]

Seriously: go back and read it. He was talking about a mixture of abortion and adoption. You've just totally gone off on one.

See the edited comment. I mixed up the comments.

 

[fez]

The simplest solution would be to have handles on the backs of buses.

Thinking outside the box, I like it.

 

[Amp34]

I am still lolling at the sociopathic notion abortion or putting a child up for adoption is a simple thing that you do just to get rid of the inconvenience. You know like having to clean your shoe after stepping in dog poop.

Also that having children is a "life style choice".

Utterly moronic.

I assume you are anti choice then? Are you religious by chance? If you are anti choice do you also believe that contrecptives are bad too?

Having a child today is a conscious decision (or at least should be).

On a different note, environmentally having a child is probably the most damaging thing you can do to the planet. We all have a moral obligation not to have more than 2 children (to replace the parents) and help slowly reduce the human population down to more sustainable levels. I know most people on here don't give a damn about anything but their lives, or at least human lives, but there is a whole world of other living things out there that deserve just as much respect and the right to life that you appear to be an advocate of. (Now that really is off topic!)

 

[Haggisman]

You might be looking at it through the lens of equality, but I am not. I consider this to be more an issue of people not respecting rules.

Rules are (or at least should be) there for a reason. The reason in this case is equality (at least as far as possible). Therefore you are, whether you like it or not, arguing for equality

I assume you are anti choice then? Are you religious by chance? If you are anti choice do you also believe that contrecptives are bad too?

To be fair to him, it does come across as sociopathic that you appear to see abortion or adoption as an "easy" choice, and are unable to grasp the concept that people actually get attached to their children (even if they are scientifically speaking still just a blob of cells).

If my circumstances changed to a point where I could no longer support my son (physically, financially, whatever) and putting him up for adoption was the best thing for him in every possible way, it would still be a very difficult decision to make.

 

[cheesyboy]

You might be looking at it through the lens of equality, but I am not. I consider this to be more an issue of people not respecting rules.

There have been plenty of unjust "rules" throughout history. As beings capable of independent thought, it's our duty to question whether the rules we are expected to tolerate are correct. This particular "rule" is not an obviously, or likely, odious one - but it is correct that we question it.

There may be a better way. Blindly accepting "the rules" will not lead us to finding it.

See the edited comment. I mixed up the comments.

I can't quite grasp what the misunderstanding was, but I'm reassured that there was one. Because it was a strange path of thinking

 

[thep02]

First person in the space has the right to it, in this case wheelchair guy should be complaining about the lack of busses rather than the pushchair user.

 

[jamief]

So, the woman is expected to:

1) Lift a baby out of the buggy on the bus
2) Fold the buggy whilst holding a baby(was there shopping in the buggy?) - any of you saying this is easy should try it
3) Sit on a seat and hold the baby, leaving either one or no hands free to stop herself from potentially slipping out of the seat (some of the bus drivers round here drive like they stole it).

If I were her, I'd have done the same thing and refused. The lack of provision on the bus isn't her fault.

What if it was a double buggy and the woman had twins? Different story?

 

[Amp34]

To be fair to him, it does come across as sociopathic that you appear to see abortion or adoption as an "easy" choice, and are unable to grasp the concept that people actually get attached to their children (even if they are scientifically speaking still just a blob of cells).

If my circumstances changed to a point where I could no longer support my son (physically, financially, whatever) and putting him up for adoption was the best thing for him in every possible way, it would still be a very difficult decision to make.

I agree with that. I think there is a distinct difference between abortion and adoption. I don't think Moses meant it like that anyway, his suggestion was more akin to a surrogate mother, giving birth and then handing the baby other, rather than having a child for 5-10 years and then having to give it up.

Neither of them are easy choices, however there are many, many difficult choices people have to make throughout their lives, having a child (or aborting a fetus/embryo) is one of them.

 

[Castiel]

Well, TFL buses do have the bylaws to fall back on.

TFL, unlike the rest of the UK is a regulated public transport service. Bus services outside London are deregulated.

I think the issue is the ambiguity between DDA obligations and rights of the operator potentially being in conflict and the court figuring out where liability may lay.

There is no ambiguity in the DoT guidelines. But, yes there is an issue in this ruling that needs clarifying.

 

[SpeedFreak]

Precisely. It's still discrimination. In order for there to be true equality, there should be an equal number of wheelchair spots as there are spots for non-disabled passengers.

This is a serious suggestion? It's not a wind up or a bait? That is simply a ridiculous proposal.

 

[LOAM]

There is no ambiguity in the DoT guidelines. But, yes there is an issue in this ruling that needs clarifying.

Did you see my post above Mr.C? My understanding is that the regulations are in force now if the vehicle came into operation after Dec 31st 2000, vehicles prior to that have until 2017 to either be retired or retrofitted to comply. I have added a caveat to my post though to allow an escape route

 

[Neodite]

So, the woman is expected to:

1) Lift a baby out of the buggy on the bus
2) Fold the buggy whilst holding a baby(was there shopping in the buggy?) - any of you saying this is easy should try it
3) Sit on a seat and hold the baby, leaving either one or no hands free to stop herself from potentially slipping out of the seat (some of the bus drivers round here drive like they stole it).

If I were her, I'd have done the same thing and refused. The lack of provision on the bus isn't her fault.

What if it was a double buggy and the woman had twins? Different story?

Sorry, but if you are unable to hold a baby and fold up something you can do with one foot I feel for you..

I have brought up 2 children, and not only is this not hard, it is easy.

Not like I get the bus, but when my kids was babys, if someone with a wheelchair came on, I would straight away fold the pushchair up and give him room.

If the baby woke up? You put it back to sleep. I swear people here making our parenting is hard have never had kids and just been told by there mummys it was hard.

*EDIT* before you call me out with the one foot. You place your foot under the catch at the bottom/middle of the pushchair, give it a quick lift to unlock it, then take your foot on the back of the pushchair and push it and it folds. OMG SO HARD FU DISABLED MAN

 

[Zogger]

The only thing the article says about the situation is this: "the wheelchair space was taken by a pushchair. The mother, not wanting to wake her sleeping baby, refused to move." - which tells you practically nothing about the what actually happened. We don't even know if it's correct that she outright refused to move or if that's just a concise way of representing the story according to one side.

Have you seen the pushchair in question? How do you know how it folds up? The child is described as a baby so it could easily have been a pram rather than a normal pushchair? These are much harder to fold up and take up more space. We had a horiffic pushchair that you hade to seperate in to two parts and then use both hands to fold up, and it barely took up any less space.
Do you know anything about the situation of the mother? How old is the baby? Did she have other children with her? Did she have a week's shopping as well as the pushchair? Is she herself in some way disabled (even temporarily) and not able to easily do any of this by herself? Is she sleep deprived and suffering from PND? Not all babies will just go back to sleep if woken up so you can't assume your experience is right and other people's is wrong. How many other people were on the bus? What kind of people were they?

Ok, it may be that none of these were the case, but I don't see how anyone can judge the mother, based on one sentence of an unknown source, without knowing any of this.

 

[theone8181]

Sorry, but if you are unable to hold a baby and fold up something you can do with one foot I feel for you..

I have brought up 2 children, and not only is this not hard, it is easy.

Not like I get the bus, but when my kids was babys, if someone with a wheelchair came on, I would straight away fold the pushchair up and give him room.

If the baby woke up? You put it back to sleep. I swear people here making our parenting is hard have never had kids and just been told by there mummys it was hard.

*EDIT* before you call me out with the one foot. You place your foot under the catch at the bottom/middle of the pushchair, give it a quick lift to unlock it, then take your foot on the back of the pushchair and push it and it folds. OMG SO HARD FU DISABLED MAN

Because all pushchairs fold the same right I can say for a fact the pram I have for my daughter requires 2 hands to fold.

 

[pinkowl]

I think the wheelchair user should have been able to get in the bus and the pushchair should have moved if it was possible. However I have a friend whose child is not yet in a wheelchair but has a special pushchair to support her body the right way as she is disabled. In that case they would not be able to move.
I know its right for anyone though and the only solution would be have more space in bus for both.

 

[KillBoY_UK]

So, the woman is expected to:

1) Lift a baby out of the buggy on the bus
2) Fold the buggy whilst holding a baby(was there shopping in the buggy?) - any of you saying this is easy should try it
3) Sit on a seat and hold the baby, leaving either one or no hands free to stop herself from potentially slipping out of the seat (some of the bus drivers round here drive like they stole it).

If I were her, I'd have done the same thing and refused. The lack of provision on the bus isn't her fault.

What if it was a double buggy and the woman had twins? Different story?

So the wheelchair user can:

1. Get out of his wheelchair
2. fold it up
3. Get on the bus

Oh wait there's a 99% chance he or she can't do that. The wheel chair user is at the mercy of the other buses users. The push chair user is not they have other options, smaller pushchairs, collapsible pushchairs or even none at all and use one of those baby harness.

 

[jamief]

Sorry, but if you are unable to hold a baby and fold up something you can do with one foot I feel for you..

I have brought up 2 children, and not only is this not hard, it is easy.

Not like I get the bus, but when my kids was babys, if someone with a wheelchair came on, I would straight away fold the pushchair up and give him room.

If the baby woke up? You put it back to sleep. I swear people here making our parenting is hard have never had kids and just been told by there mummys it was hard.

*EDIT* before you call me out with the one foot. You place your foot under the catch at the bottom/middle of the pushchair, give it a quick lift to unlock it, then take your foot on the back of the pushchair and push it and it folds. OMG SO HARD FU DISABLED MAN

I've got 2 children so I'm well aware of how pushchairs fold - folding one, whilst holding a child in the confines of a bus is absolutely not EASY. I can only assume your little spiel above is to try and illustrate your point of view rather than having any basis on reality.

 

[cheesyboy]

My pushchair needs two hands to fold. There's no way of doing it one-handed.

 

[Judgeneo]

I've got 2 children so I'm well aware of how pushchairs fold - folding one, whilst holding a child in the confines of a bus is absolutely not EASY. I can only assume your little spiel above is to try and illustrate your point of view rather than having any basis on reality.

Not easy, certainly, very frustrating yes, but possible.

Unlike the situation for a wheelchair user.