Will UKIP win its first seat in parliament tonight?

[Mynight]

Sorry bud, i meant why do you feel that way? ( or don't you ) what does a national flag mean to you personally amongst the other hundreds of national flags on earth

My apologies. I guess the national flag represents everything that has been given to me ' free of charge' the NHS saving my life when I was born, the top education, the work and eventually the ability to create my own company and all the history its been a part of. It's somthing countless people have fought and died to protect. While there is some sordid parts of British history. For all the quality it represents it seems a shame to sully it due to a certain minorities point of view(the BNP).

I'm not a so called nationalist but it seems a shame that something that has represented us for so long is tied to a less than desirable trait.

 

[dalehitchy1]

They also approve of the deep surveillance state and are into corporatism.

apparently wearing a tweed jacket and drinking a beer means we will all be OK. Whether they win or not in future they are not as liberal towards the common white working man as they would have you believe.

This exactly. You only have to look at this news to realise an ex banker such as Nigel farage would try and do the same thing


http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/nov/20/osborne-eu-cap-bankers-bonuses-defeat-ecj

 

[Danthus]

At least Farage has had a job.

 

[phill1978]

My apologies. I guess the national flag represents everything that has been given to me ' free of charge' the NHS saving my life when I was born, the top education, the work and eventually the ability to create my own company and all the history its been a part of. It's somthing countless people have fought and died to protect. While there is some sordid parts of British history. For all the quality it represents it seems a shame to sully it due to a certain minorities point of view(the BNP).

I'm not a so called nationalist but it seems a shame that something that has represented us for so long is tied to a less than desirable trait.

I agree on the last part. Thanks for your reply, it seems you tie in your personal success to the existing British system. Do you think you would have been able to craft a living or fight to be just as successful in another country ?

Maybe your type of person was going to succeed in any country regardless of flag & values?

 

[Narj]

At least Farage has had a job.

This is true.

Can someone please point me to the documented policies suggesting support of a surveillance state? I'm genuinely interested considering the fact that these guys paint themselves as the average bloke down the pub. By documented, I don't mean a guardian or mail article.

 

[Danthus]

Have you been living under a rock?

 

[Narj]

Have you been living under a rock?

No just working stupid hours and out of touch with anything current affairs that isnt related to Philae.

 

[phill1978]

This is true.

Can someone please point me to the documented policies suggesting support of a surveillance state? I'm genuinely interested considering the fact that these guys paint themselves as the average bloke down the pub. By documented, I don't mean a guardian or mail article.

There was a phone in where Nigel was fielding calls (its on youtube) ( very well I might add, he was a natural at being radio presenter ) a member of the public who passionately supported UKIP rang and asked about the surveillance and how far it had gone, believing that Nigel would support his liberal views on the intrusion by the state ( something UKIP have been trying to show their support in defending the public about the police state / nanny state etc.. its one of their supposed core values ) But to the UKIP supporters surprise and dismay he actually palmed the guy off quickly and succinctly saying that the state has a job to do and they need to keep on doing it to keep everyone safe etc..

I think he lost a few supporters with that one. And is it any wonder, im not going to go into globalism or corporatism rants here.. but yea, bankers,business,politics favouring the wealthy...

their just neo-cons, nothing fancy here.

 

[RDM]

There was a phone in where Nigel was fielding calls (its on youtube) ( very well I might add, he was a natural at being radio presenter ) a member of the public who supported UKIP rang and asked about the surveillance and how far it had gone, believing that Nigel would support his liberal views on the intrusion by the state ( something UKIP have been trying to show their support in defending the public about the police state / nanny state etc..) But to the UKIP supporters surprise and dismay he actually palmed the guy off quickly and succinctly saying that the state has a job to do and they need to keep on doing it to keep everyone safe etc..

It isn't really all that uncommon a view, tbh the average man in the pub probably agrees. The state does indeed have a job to do, the real question is not should surveillance happen but how much and what oversight is required.

 

[Narj]

I think he lost a few supporters with that one. And is it any wonder, im not going to go into globalism or corporatism rants here.. but yea, bankers,business,politics favouring the wealthy...

their just neo-cons, nothing fancy here.

Not as liberal as they'd have us believe then. Yes the state is always going to snoop but there has to be due diligence, not a free for all.

Thanks for that

 

[phill1978]

It isn't really all that uncommon a view, tbh the average man in the pub probably agrees. The state does indeed have a job to do, the real question is not should surveillance happen but how much and what oversight is required.

I agree we need to use surveillance albeit carefully, but the average man (no offence but your on here so your not one of them and are tech savvy) doesn’t understand just how far its gone and keeps on going. But then the question is.. who watches the watchmen. Who does the oversight ? Look at all the lords and ladies put in charge of these places and then look at all the oversight groups with lords and ladies in charge there too, can there be any transparency here ..

all your data all the time be it on your LAN / WAN / GP records all managed, packaged and sold off to corporations or collated to profile your 'character' automatically.

but yes, proper oversight after everything has been said and done two years on hasn’t happened at all. There are smarter ways of catching bad guys without a digital dragnet but this is about selling personal data for money in the main and those systems cost billions of tax payers money .. your money.

who is auditing those sites to get maximum value, these are public sector organisations, should we sell off the surveillance state too to France or Germany ? Highest bidder ?

 

[RDM]

I agree, but the average man ( no offence but your on here so your not one of them) doesn’t understand just how far its gone and keeps on going. But then the question is.. who watches the watchmen. Who does the oversight ? Look at all the lords and ladies put in charge of these places and then look at all the oversight groups with lords and ladies in charge there too.

all your data all the time be it on your LAN / WAN / GP records all managed, packaged and sold off to corporations.

But UKIP isn't really that different to the Conservatives or Labour in that respect. Pretty much only the Lib Dems are anti surveillance.

 

[Mynight]

I agree on the last part. Thanks for your reply, it seems you tie in your personal success to the existing British system. Do you think you would have been able to craft a living or fight to be just as successful in another country ?

Maybe your type of person was going to succeed in any country regardless of flag & values?

Quite. That could well be the case but I couldn't be too arrogant and claim I could thrive anywhere.

I would put a lot of my success down to my parents doing so well and my feeling that not only do I have to make them proud I owe them an awful lot (not just in monetary terms). However whether I'd be in the posistion to do that without being born in this country is anyone's guess.

I would suggest if I was born in another country I may not have had the same options presented to me here. For example my first and still main business of electrical work while somewhat in demand in certain places is extremely saturated in other countries. Even though I gained top grades during exams I prefer to work with my hands as such if I grew up where being a sparky wasn't a sustainable job I may well have ended up in office work not working for myself.

There's just too many factors to really give a definitive answer. However maybe if I hadn't succeeded (well still a work in progress) then my view on Britain, the UK and our flag would be somewhat different.

It's a rather hard thing to explain. You do raise an interesting point and I fear it's going to bug me until I work out an answer .

 

[Danthus]

The real issue with the pervasiveness of surveillance is the beautifully simple way in which it is done without the need to break the law or even the requirement to work within a legal framework.

 

[Narj]

But UKIP isn't really that different to the Conservatives or Labour in that respect. Pretty much only the Lib Dems are anti surveillance.

Unfortunately they have too many other moronic, quixotic and utopian ideas to make them worth voting for.

 

[v0n]

So its a tribal connection ?

Yes, I think it's referred to as primordial nationalism, although that is massively tainted in history as well.

At least Farage has had a job.

But looks like he wasn't very good at it - he bankrupted his last company "Farage Limited" with liabilities of £135,677...

 

[phill1978]

But UKIP isn't really that different to the Conservatives or Labour in that respect. Pretty much only the Lib Dems are anti surveillance.

that wording always causes a stir.

"anti-surveillance" isn’t at least my point. My point is least tax cost surveillance, sensible intelligent policing with proper 3rd party oversight not run by connected people in the establishment reporting back to other connected people within the establishment.

i.e transparency and accountability through law and order ( and yes imprisonment and fines ) , we need a functioning network to protect the public but a national 'hack fest & dragnet shouldn’t pass as intelligent information gathering.


maybe we should sell our surveillance state as a single big contract we could make tens if not hundreds of billions from the British public’s data and keep the NHS alive ?

 

[Mynight]

maybe we should sell our surveillance state as a single big contract we could make tens if not hundreds of billions from the British public’s data and keep the NHS alive ?

How do you think the foreign tech support phone calls find our details?

 

[Danthus]

maybe we should sell our surveillance state as a single big contract we could make tens if not hundreds of billions from the British public’s data and keep the NHS alive ?

The NSA give us about £150 million a year, for something.

 

[phill1978]

Quite. That could well be the case but I couldn't be too arrogant and claim I could thrive anywhere.

I would put a lot of my success down to my parents doing so well and my feeling that not only do I have to make them proud I owe them an awful lot (not just in monetary terms). However whether I'd be in the posistion to do that without being born in this country is anyone's guess.

I would suggest if I was born in another country I may not have had the same options presented to me here. For example my first and still main business of electrical work while somewhat in demand in certain places is extremely saturated in other countries. Even though I gained top grades during exams I prefer to work with my hands as such if I grew up where being a sparky wasn't a sustainable job I may well have ended up in office work not working for myself.

There's just too many factors to really give a definitive answer. However maybe if I hadn't succeeded (well still a work in progress) then my view on Britain, the UK and our flag would be somewhat different.

It's a rather hard thing to explain. You do raise an interesting point and I fear it's going to bug me until I work out an answer .

Thanks for your extended reply.

what I was driving at is that your sense of nationalism comes through your perceived level of success. That Success is tied to how much you believe in a system, an idea, a flag..

I put it to you, that your success is self made in the large and on this floating piece of rock in space you would have probably managed either way. So what about the rest of these people? Their sense of having something precious to keep ( identity, racial strength, wealth, idealism) comes from a kind of protectionism that you sort of didn’t need.

But what kinds of people hide behind a flag or stand with millions of like minded people ?