Breaking News: Hostages taken in Sydney

SteveOBHave · 16 Dec 2014 at 00:12

bitslice said:
20,000 ISIS heros say you are wrong

Approximately 23% of the world's population is Muslim. Current estimates conclude that the number of Muslims in the world is around 1.6 billion.

SteveOBHave · 16 Dec 2014 at 00:13

Evangelion said:
Aussies have responded to this event by offering to ride with Muslim women who feel intimidated on public transport today:

(Source[url]).

I'd call that reasonable and rational. In fact, I'd call it a ringing endorsement of the national character.

I couldn't agree more and you have no idea how happy I am to be wrong. When I first read about that I'd lie if said that I didn't shed a few tears. It's extraordinary and I'm more than happy to retract my previous statement.

Sankari · 16 Dec 2014 at 00:16

SteveOBHave said:
I couldn't agree more and you have no idea how happy I am to be wrong. When I first read about that I'd lie if said that I didn't shed a few tears. It's extraordinary and I'm more than happy to retract my previous statement.

Nice one fella, well said.

dowie · 16 Dec 2014 at 00:21

SteveOBHave said:
Fundamentalist Islam is not the same as Extremist Islam though is it?

depends... if you're talking about wahhabism then it pretty much tries to be/claims to be... and that is the root of al quaeda, ISIS etc...

yup there are other extremist varieties too

Anyway back to the point that I'm trying to make.

Was the guy a follower of Islam? In his own twisted way, yes.
Did HE believe that his actions were in line with Islam? In his own twisted way, yes.
Were the interpretations in the Quran able to be used in justifications for these actions? Sure, in his mind.
Does this reasoning then put the onus on his faith as a relevant factor in his deciding to take people hostage and possibly kill them? I do not believe so.

We as rational reasoning human beings are able to discern wrong from right.

it is subjective really

You guys have stated that it's entirely unlikely that this guys has a mental illness (I'd dispute that but I'm not a psychologist).

I've not said it is unlikely - I've just said that you can't necessarily conclude that someone is mentally ill because they have committed this sort of act

As human beings there are a vast number of Muslims out there that don't regularly attempt to kill their fellow human beings because they have the faculty to understand wrong from right and their religion has no bearing on this.

they're not necessarily fundamentalists... of those who are - not all will act on those beliefs but may lend support to others or simply just agree with them.

This guy had done many many awful things and was due to go away for them, my assertion is that his religion is incidental to him being a very bad human. His religion didn't make him do it, his being a bad person did. He only seeks to use his religion to lend validity to his actions. Therefore, his religion has nothing to do with his actions.

but his religion is what has provided the framework to justify these actions... it is very relevant - he doesn't have to be a 'bad person' even... I mean a bad person would know that what they are doing is wrong, this guy could, within the framework of an extremist ideology, justify killing innocent people without necessarily considering that he was doing anything 'bad'.

dowie · 16 Dec 2014 at 00:25

example - research on suicide bombing:

http://www.sitemaker.umich.edu/satran/files/twq06spring_atran.pdf#2

Living mostly in the diaspora and undeterred by the
threat of retaliation against original home populations, jihadis, who are fre-
quently middle-class, secularly well educated, but often “born-again” radical
Islamists, including converts from Christianity, embrace apocalyptic visions
for humanity’s violent salvation. In Muslim countries and across western
Europe, bright and idealistic Muslim youth, even more than the marginalized
and dispossessed, internalize the jihadi story, illustrated on satellite televi-
sion and the Internet with the ubiquitous images of social injustice and po-
litical repression with which much of the Muslim world’s bulging immigrant
and youth populations intimately identifies. From the suburbs of Paris to the
jungles of Indonesia, I have interviewed culturally uprooted and politically
restless youth who echo a stunningly simplified and decontextualized message
of martyrdom for the sake of global jihad as life’s noblest cause. They are in-
creasingly as willing and even eager to die as they are to kill.

Terrorism is increasingly down to ideology, beliefs, ideals... these aren't necessarily 'bad' people or nutters - they're well educated people who genuinely believe in what they're doing, believe they're doing gods work.... to dismiss this as nothing to do with their religion and/or dismiss them as 'nutter' or just 'bad people' is flawed and goes against the cases that have been studied/researched.

SteveOBHave · 16 Dec 2014 at 00:37

dowie said:
but his religion is what has provided the framework to justify these actions... it is very relevant - he doesn't have to be a 'bad person' even... I mean a bad person would know that what they are doing is wrong, this guy could, within the framework of an extremist ideology, justify killing innocent people without necessarily considering that he was doing anything 'bad'.

Ah I see where you're coming from - but in this specific case I think you're wrong - he was genuinely just bad.

dowie · 16 Dec 2014 at 00:42

he might be, I'm sure we'll find out more about him in coming days.... (I'm not saying he isn't or that he's not mentally ill - just that you can't necessarily conclude that from him taking hostages and/or killing them - and I'd certainly say that his religious beliefs have played a big part)

Sankari · 16 Dec 2014 at 01:02

Devlish said:
My moneys going on him getting shot at 3am.

Good call, you were only 1 hour out!

anything I don't mind said:
My money on http://www.dynamiq.com.au/ being the crisis management firm in charge of the operation.

And how's that theory working out for you right now?

KIA said:
Indeed. He should have been deported in 2010.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ers-to-families-of-dead-British-soldiers.html

He was an Australian citizen, can't deport him.

EdGey · 16 Dec 2014 at 01:19

If he's alone then I imagine this will be sorted out quite quickly and easily...

Devlish · 16 Dec 2014 at 01:22

EdGey said:
If he's alone then I imagine this will be sorted out quite quickly and easily...

Unfortunately not. My sympathies go to the two victims, from what I understand (could be way out) the manager went for the gun and he and a mother of 3 were killed. No sympathy at all for the gunman.

EdGey · 16 Dec 2014 at 01:25

Devlish said:
Unfortunately not. My sympathies go to the two victims, from what I understand (could be way out) the manager went for the gun and he and a mother of 3 were killed. No sympathy at all for the gunman.

Reading on BBC now... seems I was on an old article wondering why there were no updates.

OhEsEcks · 16 Dec 2014 at 01:26

EdGey said:
Source?

Has the situation come to a close?

Yes. They went in earlier. Manager that died went for the gun. The woman that died had a heart attack. Several caught rounds but are all stable. It's on the BBC site.

Mynight · 16 Dec 2014 at 01:28

As much as it can come to a close it has.

DM was reporting the same thing, no idea if its correct though. Regardless

.

Another I read the manager went for the gun and was killed and the mother died of a heart attack during the raid.

SteveOBHave · 16 Dec 2014 at 01:42

Horrible outcome but it could've been significantly worse.

Sankari · 16 Dec 2014 at 02:38

Looks like this was the motivation: 'Monis had his last appeal rejected by the High Court last week.'

Must have decided he had nothing left to lose.

Von Smallhausen · 16 Dec 2014 at 03:38

d_brennen said:
I'd have thought blowing someone's head to chunks would make it fairly hard for them to detonate a vest. But my CT experience only extends to CS:S

Not if the device had a tilt switch. I'm not saying I'm right and I'm sure that a few crosshairs were on him.

Sankari · 16 Dec 2014 at 03:46

Well he had no bombs so it turns out this was not a genuine concern. But the police were wise to act as if it was.

Cosimo · 16 Dec 2014 at 06:45

RIP Tori Johnson and Katrina Dawson.

Josh · 16 Dec 2014 at 07:22

Such a shame that 2 people were killed, esp at this festive time.

Well done to the manager for what was clearly a selfless act, RIP that man!

Also RIP to the mother who died, I hope your family can come to terms with this at some stage and that christmas holds good memories in future years.

As for the gunman, well to try and stop this thread becoming more about religion than one mans sick and cruel act on humanity I will reserve comment.

OhEsEcks · 16 Dec 2014 at 07:26

The conspiracy theorists are out on the videos on Youtube claiming it's all a setup. Their reasoning is because the ADF were practising manoeuvres relating to a hostage siege in October the whole thing is a setup. Like the training in October had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Australia was hosting the G20 a month later in November in a completely different state.... some ****ing people.