Greece Elections

[Third Opinion]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30980321

"They are a worse position now than when they were rescued"

Austerity did not work and only made the problem worse.

Lets face it they only got in the EU because they cooked the books.

Nothing has changed, they have a basket case of an economy that cannot be solved by throwing money at them.

Even if they wrote off their debts they would need a bail out in a few years time.

 

[Destination]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30980321

"They are a worse position now than when they were rescued"

Austerity did not work and only made the problem worse.

Thye were not austere enough, as they are still kidding themselves. Lying on a countrywide scale to get into the eu in the first place, and still kidding themselves about how they might grow without actually paying any tax.
Good luck greece.

 

[scorza]

Any business that borrows to fund operational expenditure, as opposed to capital expenditure, is not going to be around for very long.

The government (past and present) hasn't borrowed to invest for the future, they have borrowed to pay the bills now, which is a totally different argument.

Well looking at what the coalition cut as soon as they were in power, I don't think that's true at all.

 

[Mr Jack]

E.g £100 spent on welfare, may be spent in the shops on say some consumer good, that demonstrates "growth", but if the majority of that £100 goes to pay a foreign supplier for goods produced its lost to the country it was spent in.

If a company invests £100 in a piece of productive equipment, its fuelled real growth as its been spent and its added to the capability of that company to produce more goods over a number of years.

This is a bit skew-whiff. Making things isn't the only way to add value; value is added whenever transactions occur. Welfare spending is actually a pretty good way to stoke the economy because it goes in at the bottom; sure, it doesn't directly add to productivity increases but the work that money does creates opportunities that others can take advantage of.

 

[Dolph]

This is a bit skew-whiff. Making things isn't the only way to add value; value is added whenever transactions occur. Welfare spending is actually a pretty good way to stoke the economy because it goes in at the bottom; sure, it doesn't directly add to productivity increases but the work that money does creates opportunities that others can take advantage of.

It is a good way to get a temporary boost (as it tends to get spent rather than saved), but it is a rubbish way to invest, which was the point. If you just have a demand issue, then it can work but putting 5% into this sort of spending to get 1% growth is a terrible way forward.

 

[Dolph]

Well looking at what the coalition cut as soon as they were in power, I don't think that's true at all.

Hence why I included the present government in my criticism.

 

[Mr Jack]

It is a good way to get a temporary boost (as it tends to get spent rather than saved), but it is a rubbish way to invest, which was the point. If you just have a demand issue, then it can work but putting 5% into this sort of spending to get 1% growth is a terrible way forward.

The multipliers are nothing like you suggest.

In fact, during a recession, money spent in this fashion has notably positive multipliers so each £ put in generates multiple £s in GDP. It's not investment, of course, it's not building things for the future but at times of crisis the primary need is to get the economy growing again.

 

[Stretch]

Yes: growth, inflation, devaluation of your currency and QE/printing money. The trouble for Greece was that the last three options were totally unavailable in the Euro arrangement and any hope of the first was brutally crushed by the "reforms" required by their Euro partners as conditions for the "bailout".

I fully understand the resentment and exasperation felt in Greece. However...

A loss of sovereignty was always an integral part of currency union. Something you have to be willing to accept and deal with if you wish to reap the benifits. No one forced a currency union on Greece. Germany's ultra conservative pre euro approach to monitary policy wasn't a secret, and a union that included Germany was always going to mean playing by their rules.

The EU has been very generous towards Greece. They have been one of the largest net recipients of EU funding for years, more so than most new members. They also saved Greece from bankruptcy.

It would be unreasonable to expect strapped foreign tax payers to fund a bailout, without some assurance from Greece that they are going to get their house in order. It just wouldn't work politically outside Greece.

In many cases, the "austerity" imposed on Greece is simply aligning entitlements with the countries funding the bailouts. It would have been perverse in the extreme to have foreign tax payers subsidising Greek state perks they were't entitled to in their home country.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30980321

"They are a worse position now than when they were rescued"

Austerity did not work and only made the problem worse.

Austerity might have failed in Greece, but so did everything else.

 

[Zethor]

It's relevant which leaders are thrilled by the victory of the Greek extremists. Among various nutters, the most interesting characters are Farage, Le Pen and Putin.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/europes-populists-hail-syriza-win-from-left-and-right-1422320824

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/europes-east/tsipras-has-first-clash-eu-over-russia-311616

 

[jl10000]

Greece has no other choice unless it wants perpetual misery. I'm sure the population of Spain, Portugal, Italy and Cyprus will be watching very closely

 

[StriderX]

It's relevant which leaders are thrilled by the victory of the Greek extremists. Among various nutters, the most interesting characters are Farage, Le Pen and Putin.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/europes-populists-hail-syriza-win-from-left-and-right-1422320824

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/europes-east/tsipras-has-first-clash-eu-over-russia-311616

They all hate the EU...theres nothing more to it.

 

[Freddie1980]

It's relevant which leaders are thrilled by the victory of the Greek extremists. Among various nutters, the most interesting characters are Farage, Le Pen and Putin.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/europes-populists-hail-syriza-win-from-left-and-right-1422320824

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/europes-east/tsipras-has-first-clash-eu-over-russia-311616

The new Greek government will make it difficult for the EU to impose further sanctions on Russia as they have already come out and said they oppose the current sanctions imposed on the terrorist state that is Putins Russia.

 

[dowie]

I wonder how long it will be until there are further protests when the Greek population realises that this anti-austerity govt actually doesn't have much room to maneuver as far as reversing austerity measures is concerned.

 

[dowie]

The new Greek government will make it difficult for the EU to impose further sanctions on Russia as they have already come out and said they oppose the current sanctions imposed on the terrorist state that is Putins Russia.

well they can send them some olive shipments, won't like change the effects of sanctions too much

 

[M1k3H]

I wonder how long it will be until there are further protests when the Greek population realises that this anti-austerity govt actually doesn't have much room to maneuver as far as reversing austerity measures is concerned.

I have to say that I agree with what this government is saying. I have Greek friends and know people who leave/study in Greece. The situation is unbearable for a lot of people.

High suicide rates, poverty rates, unemployment rates.

And please spare the "they made their bed", as the people suffering now are not the ones that were bribing their way out of paying tax, getting benefits for anything whilst being employed etc, and these are the people who voted for this government.

 

[dowie]

you can agree all you like, they can't fund it all with magic beans - the money has to come from somewhere - they're already in massive amounts of debt, asking for a bunch of existing debt to be written off while also wanting to be lent more money isn't necessarily going to go down to well with their creditors

the new govt really isn't going to have much room to change much

 

[jl10000]

And please spare the "they made their bed", as the people suffering now are not the ones that were bribing their way out of paying tax, getting benefits for anything whilst being employed etc, and these are the people who voted for this government.

The narrative is it is the Greeks fault for not paying their taxes or some other pathetic reason, which is rubbish of course.

 

[dowie]

The narrative is it is the Greeks fault for not paying their taxes or some other pathetic reason, which is rubbish of course.

yeah I mean a whole chunk of the population avoiding/evading taxes which were supposed to fund one of the lowest retirement ages in Europe and pay for a whole army of civil servants... that can't have caused any of the problems they're facing today

 

[jl10000]

Yes it was the farmers, shop keepers, nurses, small business owners and street cleaners. It was nothing to do with corrupt Greek bureaucrats and banks getting Greece into the single currency which they should never have been part of. And it was nothing to do with the EU cancelling democracy in Greece and replacing hope with austerity.

The EU and Greek elites pushed too hard, Greece can either leave the Euro or become debt slaves for another 10 years.

 

[dowie]

I don't believe I mentioned street cleaners or nurses...

The EU hasn't cancelled democracy in Greece, it is up the Greeks what they do next. Surprisingly enough if they want others to carry on lending them huge sums then those huge sums might well come with conditions attached.