Terrorist Attack in Copenhagen, Denmark
- Thread starter StriderX
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Given that isn't what I am doing nor saying your point is redundant. Its called putting it in perspective, not downplaying it...you and others are attempting to make it more than it is, probably to salve and further your own irrational fears and prejudices. You have no more relevant things to say so you and others such as Robgmun resort to argumentum ad hominem instead.
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Wonder if it took them longer to die than Clayton Lockett?
That's a rather blunt way to put it, but 21 Coptic Christians held captive in Libya have been killed by Ansar Beyt al-Maqdis, an ally to Islamic State and who gave been waging a war against Egyptian Forces since the removal of Mursi as the Egyptian President. Amongst others, Al Azhar, the center of Islamic learning in Egypt, said no religion would accept such "barbaric" acts and denounced both the act and militants.
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Sorry, how should I have dressed it up?
Having a modicum of respect for those killed isn't too much trouble.
You could have worded it with a little more compassion, it's not important anyway I just thought it was a rather blunt way to post the murder of innocent people.
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It's what you are unsuccessfully trying to do and has been noticed by more than one poster. The muddying of the waters with Jewish terrorist groups (you most likely had to google) and trying to balance the scale of extremists on both sides is a particularly baffling line of argument. The downplaying of security checks for terrorists at airports and making out it is more for illegal immigrants and drugs when you know full well you are taking your shoes off because of Richard Reid and the liquid restriction due to the bomb plot is again evidence of disingenuity on your part.
With each week we have more atrocities committed in the name of Islam and your attempts at downplaying the threat are like King Canute trying to hold back the tide.
so what? Fact is that barbaric, terrorist acts are being carried out in the name of Islam. So A says it's nothing to do with it and B uses it to justify.
whilst As' words supposed purpose is to lay minds to rest the fact remains that a significant amount of terrorist acts are committed in the name of Islam. These people DO reference its teachings to murder and maim, and quite frankly the words of someone like Al Azhar are sounding increasingly hollow.
, at least to my ears.
This has everything to do with Islam and it needs to reform itself, badly.
Yes, because it's less the way they were killed and more there reason. But then you don't actually care why they were killed do you?
Compassion can be expressed for the victims without softening the abhorrence for the murderers.
If you say so, however none of what you have said in your diatribe is actually true so like I said, it's redundant. You are simply resorting logical fallacy because you cannot respond in any other way.
An opinion which only shows an ignorance of both Islam and the way in which Islam can fight against Islamism and acts justified in its name...it begins with influential Islamic organisations, who speak for many, many Muslims speaking out and denouncing these acts and the groups who commit them. It starts with Muslims standing up and being counted, it begins with saying "Not in my name". You don't fight extremism and radicalisation by being silent in your own house, frankly there has been too much of that already.
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Is that happening?
funny considering my last sentence mentioned how Islam needs to reform itself.
Here's an interview from Der Spiegel that's quite interesting and refutes the 'nothing to do with Islam' nonsense:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ednan-aslan-islam-ist-das-was-wir-draus-machen-a-1017271.html
(google translate, unfortunately)
Adnan Aslan was born in eastern Turkey in 1959, studied in Tübingen and Stuttgart and did his PhD on religious education of Muslim children in Germany and Austria. He teaches at the University of Vienna and complained that Islamic theology foot so far primarily on violence.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Mr. Aslan, terrorists invoke Islam. Muslims say this has nothing to do with Islam. Is violence now theologically justified or not?
Aslan: Recently, a Jordanian fighter pilot of IS-fighters was burned alive. This is a shocking act that can be explained Islamic law. But only if we revived old, not modern legal foundations. This is exactly what these terrorists but. The Caliph Abu Bakr, for example, the first successor of the Prophet Mohammed, whole villages had, according to tradition burn down because they had become apostate. They were completely different times in the 7th century, and even then there was criticism of this action. But unfortunately such legal interpretations are now revived and taught at theological faculties, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Why Muslims say other then this violence has nothing to do with Islam?
Aslan: Many Muslims are very advanced and know not with this ancient interpretation of Islamic theology. You can not imagine that such barbaric violence could have to do with Islam itself. The vast majority of Muslims reject terrorism. But unfortunately the foundations for violence still exist in Islamic law. Some believe that this law is not applicable today. But we see that young people are in the "Islamic State" to implement these old laws into action. New is not: In Iran there are always stoning. Saudi Arabia depends almost every week people with the sword out. This is a part of the Islamic reality.
"Critical debates are unthinkable"
SPIEGEL ONLINE: While we turn away in disgust at the IS, we do with Saudi Arabia shops.
Aslan: Yes, this is our double standard that shocked many people in Islamic countries. On one hand, we condemn the IS-crime in Syria and Iraq. On the other hand, we trade with countries that are responsible for comparable acts regularly and systematically. With this double standard of the West harms democracy, because many Muslims say: If democracy is we do not understand them. This affects the image of the West.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: The Image of Islam suffers because devout Muslims interpret the Koran literally and refuse to interpret Scripture. What do you think needs to change?
Aslan: Islam is of course what we make of it. The way we live and practice it corresponds to the degree of our spiritual maturity. Islam, as Muslims are. The Quran is indeed a closed book, but our understanding of the Scriptures is a continuous process. A religion is therefore never finished, because people are constantly working on it. Unfortunately, I find that the mental maturity of many Muslims in the twelfth century was much more developed than now, in the 21st century. Critical debates that took place 800 years ago in Baghdad, are unthinkable today, because many Muslims consider them as un-Islamic. Currently, an enlightening perspective is not accepted as a form of Islam, we could not live with European character. That scares me.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: But how could such debates are possible again, without having to fear for his life?
Aslan: We need to reform the legal doctrine in Islam and characterize Islam from a European Enlightenment tradition. In addition, the theological faculties in Islamic countries need to be replaced. You would have a future-oriented teaching, not history oriented so that people can live without contradictions between modern society and religious doctrine. In Turkey, about people remember more and more to the Ottoman Empire. I think this is wrong. This is a reverse trend, some colleagues speak of a Salafisierung Islamic theology. Just so does the IS: Who gives life to the story and, thereby creating his own foundations.
SPIEGEL ONLINE: Who's going to interpret the statements of the Qur'an with the times?
Aslan: I do not want to be overbearing or Euro-centric, but it is clear: In a country where there is no freedom, no one can reform religion. That would be like playing with fire. For this reason we have this chance only in the West because we think in freedom and research, despite all the difficulties. This freedom is a chance for us Muslims.
You do realise that Prof Adnan Aslan is actually supporting what I have said in many, many threads. We see restitution of Hadith long since denounced, we see cultural and regional interpretations of sharia being given precedence over long held jurisprudence and we see Salafism and Wahhabism replacing and overturning centuries of Islamic figh and interpreting minority positions as being 'the true Islam', promoting actions that even 7th century Muslims criticised. When in fact, most Muslims don't follow Salafism or Wahhabism, but unfortunately, like Aslan says, there is no opportunity for Muslims in these countries to speak out, so we need to do it for them and when we have, as we have recently, significant Muslim groups and prominent Islamic figures speaking out against ISIS, even those in Saudi, Iran and Egypt, then we need to support them.
As Aslan says, Muslims in the 12th Century were more advanced and mature than those we see promoting such sects as Salafism and Wahhabism and the Islamist groups upon whose ideologies they depend, who have created a false "theology of violence".
If you had read anything by Prof Aslan, you would know that he actually teaches and explains how Islam is better understood in an environment of tolerance and peace and not in the context of of what he terms "Theology of Violence" which he says came about with the Ottomans.
As Aslan says, Muslims in the 12th Century were more advanced and mature than those we see promoting such sects as Salafism and Wahhabism and the Islamist groups upon whose ideologies they depend, who have created a false "theology of violence".
If you had read anything by Prof Aslan, you would know that he actually teaches and explains how Islam is better understood in an environment of tolerance and peace and not in the context of of what he terms "Theology of Violence" which he says came about with the Ottomans.
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