A single purchase for an amateur wedding

Actually Ray's right about the macro - I was thinking about FF as I sometimes use it as a portrait lens but forgot how much "longer" it will effectively be on a crop. 160mm could be useful for some candids at a distance I guess.
 
al4x said:
i switched to back button focus a while a go (think saw a thread on here)
im going to get the damn thing out now.
i had a look at some i took the other day - not really happy with any of them
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I personally don't like back focus. I have my shutter set to only release when in focus, and I have may camera set to focus priority rather than shutter release priority to boost the keeper rate.
This way as soon as the camera acquires focus, it releases the shutter without delay thus minimising AF errors due to movement of me and subject.
 
Is your sister hiring a professional photographer also? Obviously you still do photos but I think a pro being there to take the proper pics would be best if your inexperienced and have no experience with flash.
 
Combat squirrel said:
Is your sister hiring a professional photographer also? Obviously you still do photos but I think a pro being there to take the proper pics would be best if your inexperienced and have no experience with flash.
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shes not, ive told her she should. i think someone else might be there with a cam but unsure
 
I've done a few close family weddings, but never as primary photographer, just as a second "viewpoint", so listen to the real guys and take my opinion with a pinch of salt.

I wouldn't buy a 17-55 for a wedding. With the 60D you'll be pushing the ISO too far later on in the evening. Flash will help but aperture still rules. Read up and practice a lot about flash techniques as it's not as obvious as pointing a bright shiny things at stuff. For me flash is probably the most difficult aspect of photography, and using it well really separates those who know what they're doing.

I'd use the 35mm f1.4 for almost everything. A little tight on crop but workable if you think about position. Keep the 10-22 in the bag for group shots, and the Macro in case you get stranded. I reckon you'll be fine.

Is your sis putting a lot of money and organisation into the wedding? If so I'd keep emphasising that you've never done this before, and that hiring a pro is the way to go. If it's more of a relaxed affair then everything will be peachy.

You'd be welcome to borrow my 50D if you want a second body. On a bend it/mend it basis. I also have a 17-55 but I don't think it's the droid you're looking for!
 
al4x said:
shes not, ive told her she should. i think someone else might be there with a cam but unsure
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I honestly think she should look into it - I am a full time photographer who does a lot of weddings, and EXACTLY this scenario where a family member ends up doing the photos usually ends up in tears - and I'm not talking about the cake. (People usually approach me after to try and fix bad photos in the hope their one special day of their ENTIRE LIFE can be remembered properly, but obviously most of the time I can't do much)

Obviously all due respect to yourself and I am sure your very handy with a cam, as possibly could be the other person. HOWEVER iv done loads of weddings now and every time I encounter a new situation, different light, differing customer needs, its a really friggin hard job to do and thankfully from doing 1000000's of photos I can draw upon little bits of different experiences to help me make the best photos in a certain situation. If you have not even used a flash before, well, your going into the deep end - there is nothing more pressured than a wedding to 'get it right' at zero hour, without fail.

Please please show your sister this post, if you want me to talk to her then no problems!! lol (I am not looking to get hired for work here you live to far away), also read this:

http://www.rocknrollbride.com/2012/...=referral&utm_campaign=Official+Facebook+Page

But seriously, its the one day of her life where its got to be perfect, hire a professional - the only thing anyone has left after the wedding is the rings and the photos........indeed this is what ALL wedding planners tell clients, skimp elsewhere to save money, but not on those things.
 
I've definitely made it clear that if she wants anything good get a pro.
She either doesn't genuinely mind or she doesn't quite get how bad it will be.

I will point her to the bad pic Web site!

Its nothing extravagant at all. Somewhat on the cheap. But as pointed out its the pics and rings which last.

Is best lens+body option a FF 24-70? Far wider than anything I have for my crop (obviously uwa isn't suitable for low light at all)

And I fully expect me to do a terrible job. It's not just first attempt at wedding, it's my first attempt at people!
 
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al4x said:
I've definitely made it clear that if she wants anything good get a pro.
She either doesn't genuinely mind or she doesn't quite get how bad it will be.

I will point her to the bad pic Web site!

Its nothing extravagant at all. Somewhat on the cheap. But as pointed out its the pics and rings which last.

Is best lens+body option a FF 24-70? Far wider than anything I have for my crop (obviously uwa isn't suitable for low light at all)

And I fully expect me to do a terrible job. It's not just first attempt at wedding, it's my first attempt at people!
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I didn't mean to imply anything towards you good sir of course, so don't get down hearted, I have no doubt you will do what you can ! :)

For now I will do what I can to recommend the best I can with you.

Of course other fantastic photographers have already replied but my 2p advice for you:

1) SIMPLIFY everything, forget all the kit you listed, if you can take only this:

- Canon 60D
- Tamron 17-50 F2.8 IS .. OR hire a Canon 17-55 F2.8 IS (either lens is fantastic)
- If you love prime, sure take ONE prime (35mm I guess)
- Flash (Yongnuo RT600 if you can for £100)
- Spare batteries & memory cards

Don't weight yourself down pointlessly it will only distract you and achieve nothing at all. I chose IS lenses as its a little extra layer of 'insurance', as your inexperienced you may forget to keep an eye on shutter speeds, you can 'fix' a noisy high ISO image, you cannot fix a blurry one.

2) METHOD:

Stick to the 17-50 range lens that you choose, primes are nice but have low DOF as they are usually used at low F stops - it takes time and skill to use this, as you already say your hit rate is low.......id go as far as to say don't take it but its your choice.

Try to only use the 17-50 range - practice before the wedding with 2 sorts of portraits, full body and 'waist up' portraits......only do these 2 kinds of shots if people are paying attention to you - if they are not just walk around taking general shots of everyone.

Keep the head in the upper 3rd of the frame - many people put the head bang in the middle of the shot and that's wrong as to much empty space above.

I recommended the 17-50 ish zoom range as its a standard zoom range and you can do both full body shots and upper body shots


THATS IT - I have kept it short on purpose so not to have to remember much, make it simply, take clean sensible shots...........lastly practice with the camera now in RAW file mode (shoot the wedding in that)........I guess for some stuff shoot in P 'auto' mode, (most full time togs shoot A priority or manual).........if you wish choose aperture priority mode to change the DOF (depth of field)............but as insurance make sure you ISO is at least 800-1600 (saying this so the camera chooses a high shutter speed, obviously most pro togs go for the lowest ISO possible {not all} but this is a case of simplification for solid results in a short time situation.

Hope all helpful! :)
 
al4x said:
I've definitely made it clear that if she wants anything good get a pro.
She either doesn't genuinely mind or she doesn't quite get how bad it will be.

I will point her to the bad pic Web site!

Its nothing extravagant at all. Somewhat on the cheap. But as pointed out its the pics and rings which last.

Is best lens+body option a FF 24-70? Far wider than anything I have for my crop (obviously uwa isn't suitable for low light at all)

And I fully expect me to do a terrible job. It's not just first attempt at wedding, it's my first attempt at people!
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Not everyone has the same passion for photos. I expect if you asked in GD how many people regularly view their wedding album and have multiple wedding photos on display you will find a good percentage have never seen their wedding photos since they proceeding months, and many will say it was a waste of money. I've seen this in many wedding discussions, lots of people saying they wish they never bothered spending so much on a wedding photographer because their album sits in a draw collecting dusk.

I've been to a wedding where everyone was just told to bring their cameras and photograph as much as thy want but to give the photos to the B&G afterwards. Disposable film cameras were placed on every table as well. In any particular wedding there are bound to be several people like you that have DSLR as a hobby. Collectively everyone photos should create quite good set that captures all the key moments, but what you want get is a beautiful succinct set of creative photos that push to the artistic side of photography, you just get a record of events. For some that is fine.

Weddings them selves mean different things to different people. For many it is just a formality. Similarly, within1-2 years many married couples will be divorced. I saw a funny discussion the other week about returnee clients- those who got married, divorced and are getting married again and want to to use the same photographer because they gave good results the first time, :D


In a photography forum you just see the other side of the boas - people who are passionate about photography will take wedding photography very seriously and will be more likely to track down people like Raymond.

Of course it is far better to get an album of great photos that sit in a draw untouched vs delivery a pile of excrement that brings tears to the bride's eyes. So you really must tell you sister how bad things might be. She needs to know that she might not get a single photograph, at all. Tell her that if you camera dies or you memory card fails you wont have anything, while pros will have backups and backups of backups.


If she is happy not getting a single photo from you, or at least happy that some of the key moment s might be completely missed or hideously out of focus and she still understands then I say go for it. I don't think weddings are that difficult to shoot to get acceptably good photographs. The location is normally pretty, everyone is smartly dressed and have done their hair/makeup, every one is happy, you have no limit on subjects, most of the events are fairly predicable (not like you will be caught out by surprise when a ring is pulled out etc.)

IMO, there are 2 difficulties in wedding photography:
1) You have to deliver period. Similar to PJ and pro sports etc.
2) Turning good photos into exceptional photos.
 
Combat squirrel said:
I didn't mean to imply anything towards you good sir of course, so don't get down hearted, I have no doubt you will do what you can ! :)

For now I will do what I can to recommend the best I can with you.

Of course other fantastic photographers have already replied but my 2p advice for you:

1) SIMPLIFY everything, forget all the kit you listed, if you can take only this:

- Canon 60D
- Tamron 17-50 F2.8 IS .. OR hire a Canon 17-55 F2.8 IS (either lens is fantastic)
- If you love prime, sure take ONE prime (35mm I guess)
- Flash (Yongnuo RT600 if you can for £100)
- Spare batteries & memory cards

Don't weight yourself down pointlessly it will only distract you and achieve nothing at all. I chose IS lenses as its a little extra layer of 'insurance', as your inexperienced you may forget to keep an eye on shutter speeds, you can 'fix' a noisy high ISO image, you cannot fix a blurry one.

2) METHOD:

Stick to the 17-50 range lens that you choose, primes are nice but have low DOF as they are usually used at low F stops - it takes time and skill to use this, as you already say your hit rate is low.......id go as far as to say don't take it but its your choice.

Try to only use the 17-50 range - practice before the wedding with 2 sorts of portraits, full body and 'waist up' portraits......only do these 2 kinds of shots if people are paying attention to you - if they are not just walk around taking general shots of everyone.

Keep the head in the upper 3rd of the frame - many people put the head bang in the middle of the shot and that's wrong as to much empty space above.

I recommended the 17-50 ish zoom range as its a standard zoom range and you can do both full body shots and upper body shots


THATS IT - I have kept it short on purpose so not to have to remember much, make it simply, take clean sensible shots...........lastly practice with the camera now in RAW file mode (shoot the wedding in that)........I guess for some stuff shoot in P 'auto' mode, (most full time togs shoot A priority or manual).........if you wish choose aperture priority mode to change the DOF (depth of field)............but as insurance make sure you ISO is at least 800-1600 (saying this so the camera chooses a high shutter speed, obviously most pro togs go for the lowest ISO possible {not all} but this is a case of simplification for solid results in a short time situation.

Hope all helpful! :)
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Good advice.I also want to highlight the point you made about fast prime. I think they are best avoided for less experienced people. The last thing you want is DoF or focus issues. Shooting at f/2.8 or smaller will help ensure the subject is focused but the background will still be sufficiently soft not to cause an issue. Worst comes to the worst you can blur a background in post processing, you can' t sharpen someones heavenly blurred face.

remember, there is a couple. This isn't the same as a single portrait, you will want to get both heads in focus at least some of the time, so you are going to be stopping down to /4.0 or f/5.6 from time to time . Pay attention to the angle they are at, if one if further away than the other then you will want to stop down much more. One tip is to focus on the groom because sharpness has a more masculine feel while softness can look feminine (this applies only to subtle differences in focus). Similar, if one of them is looking more towards the camera and other more away, focus on the person looking towards the camera.

Think about the details not just the people. A ring on the finger, B&G holding hands, B holding flowers, etc, not just B&G here, B&G there. Similarly, don't forget the guests, in particular when B&G interact with guests.

Change focal lengths so you can get different looks and captures. A risk with a prime is you will get a whole set that all looks the same. This can be OK but it is nice to have variance. Forget the stupid mantra about zoom with your feet - you can't control perspective that way. Longer focal looks at greater distance and shorter focal lengths at shorter distances give very different looks, the former can give very flattering portraits with strong subject separation even when stopped own. The latter gives a more dynamic and 3D feel, but can get a cluttered feel, even narrow DoF will give a busier background. A like a nice mix.

Fo children make sure you get down to their level.
 
A flash is a must. Depending on how well you do with quick mental math, you can even get away with using a full manual one. The Yongnuo 560III's are quite nice, I have one myself. There might be a new version out already actually. They're cheap and they put out some quality light. Add a sync cable and/or a wireless trigger and you can take photos in almost any environment. Check out Strobist's lighting 101 guide for an easy to understand primer.

Secondly, have you tried adjusting your Sigma 35? Both in camera and via the dock? ~50mm equiv is very useful for most things, if you practice and get consistent with it then you may not need to hire a lens at all. A wedding could easily be covered with the 10-22, 35/1.4, and 100/2.8 you already have.
 
Thanks guys for all this.
And I'm fairly sure I'll do a bad job!

I had the sigma out last night again for a quick test.

I can't figure it out. Sometimes the same geometry of chart to camera angle/distance seems to have different focal planes

I don't have the dock and no micro adjust on my cam

But my main issue has always been that no particular plane seems in focus in the field when you discount shutter speed (ie 1/500) static shot
Never ever do I seem to have this with my Canon macro with much thinner focal planes.
And I don't think I have ever got an action shot in focus with it

I will get the 600 flash, I need it anyway
The 15-55mm may even be an option (would this be the best choice?)
Borrowing a second body might be an option too

The only pic I have ever been happy with from 35mm f1.4 @1.4

Io (35mm f1.4 A try out) by Al4x, on Flickr

And something from my 100mm.. Never ever been able to get something like this from sigma

Io Running by Al4x, on Flickr
 
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Raymond Lin said:
What's your address? I can lent you the dock for the weekend.
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If youare ok with that id be grateful!

I will PM you once im home from work this evening!

When it does get a good picture F1.4 and there abouts does look lovely.
it just never seems to happen!
 
The Sigma 35mm f/1.4 ART is known to have extreme field curvature that can make focusing extremely tricky. You mustn't use the terrible focus and recompose technique, you have to select focus points over your subject. The curvature will also screw up many compositions, e.g. you wont be able to have someone in the center and someone on the edge of the frame sharp even if they are the same distance and parallel because the focus plane is not at all flat.

One way to est this is to shoot parallel to a flat surface like a brick wall or a big test chart. If you focus using live view on the center then you should see sharp corners on a good lens but on a lens with strong field curvature the corners will be soft. If you use LV to focus on the corners you will then see the opposite problem with a soft center but sharp corners. Another way to detect it is to ffocus on a textured floor and look at th shape of the area in fous - you should see a straight line form left to right but lens with strong field curvature will see the in-focus area curve inwards to the left and right.


Stopping down to f/4.0 or f/5.6 should resolve these issues. I believe the Canon 35mm f2 IS USM has much flatter field so you might consider swapping lenses.
 
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D.P. said:
The Sigma 35mm f/1.4 ART is known to have extreme field curvature that can make focusing extremely tricky. You mustn't use the terrible focus and recompose technique, you have to select focus points over your subject. The curvature will also screw up many compositions, e.g. you wont be able to have someone in the center and someone on the edge of the frame sharp even if they are the same distance and parallel because the focus plane is not at all flat.

One way to est this is to shoot parallel to a flat surface like a brick wall or a big test chart. If you focus using live view on the center then you should see sharp corners on a good lens but on a lens with strong field curvature the corners will be soft. If you use LV to focus on the corners you will then see the opposite problem with a soft center but sharp corners. Another way to detect it is to ffocus on a textured floor and look at th shape of the area in fous - you should see a straight line form left to right but lens with strong field curvature will see the in-focus area curve inwards to the left and right.


Stopping down to f/4.0 or f/5.6 should resolve these issues. I believe the Canon 35mm f2 IS USM has much flatter field so you might consider swapping lenses.
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It's usually the problem that nothing is in focus.
As in at a glance the whole pic looks uniformly blurred

I'll dig out a few recent pics and put up a few.
I would have thought that if shutter speed is sufficient at least something on pic should be in focus.?
 
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