Alex Salmond: A second Scottish referendum is inevitible

[Glaucus]

It's not evil it's just bankrupts.

Copy the Scandinavians is what we should do, In well every area.
We don't need to move left of centre, slightly right of centre is the best, what we need is liberal slightly right of centre parties.
Of which we have non in the uk and seemingly no will for it either, and guess wherw Scandinavian countries are positioned.

Even the silly named liberal democrats are authoritarian.

 

[estebanrey]

Then it is up to to the people of England to sort that issue out. Jeremy Corbyn is putting himself forward as a genuine alternative to the cosy neo-liberal consensus between the Tories and Labour and look at the abuse he is getting from the mainstream media, members of his own party and the general public.

England does not have a genuine alternative because it has swallowed the americanist line of socialism=evil.

I don't understand that mentality that the opposition have to be radically different to the government.

When you are trying to come up with a system that works (in any field), surely you start out with all manner of radical and differing ideas and as each is tried out you discount the ones that didn't work and the people involved debate smaller and smaller differences. So shouldn't it be the same for what works best for society?

For example if you work on car innovation you accept the car works pretty well now but could be tweaked to be better. You don't start making the wheels square and removing the headlamps.

People who call Labour "Tory-Lite" quickly forget the modern Conservative party has moved left as well. Gay Marriage, support for equality legislation and an increased minimum wage are in no way "right wing" policies yet the media rarely describe the Tories as being Labour/Lib Dems with a different coloured rosette as is happening to Labour.

We tried the "ultra-Tory" policies in the Victorian era and realised they didn't work. We tried the "ultra-Labour" policies in the 70s and 80s and realised they didn't work either. Hence why we have smaller disagreements between them now.

 

[ThePirateHulk]

I don't understand that mentality that the opposition have to be radically different to the government.

When you are trying to come up with a system that works (in any field), surely you start out with all manner of radical and differing ideas and as each is tried out you discount the ones that didn't work and the people involved debate smaller and smaller differences. So shouldn't it be the same for what works best for society?

For example if you work on car innovation you accept the car works pretty well now but could be tweaked to be better. You don't start making the wheels square and removing the headlamps.

People who call Labour "Tory-Lite" quickly forget the modern Conservative party has moved left as well. Gay Marriage, support for equality legislation and an increased minimum wage are in no way "right wing" policies yet the media rarely describe the Tories as being Labour/Lib Dems with a different coloured rosette as is happening to Labour.

We tried the "ultra-Tory" policies in the Victorian era and realised they didn't work. We tried the "ultra-Labour" policies in the 70s and 80s and realised they didn't work either. Hence why we have smaller disagreements between them now.

That kind of attitude just stifles innovative thinking and leads ultimately to an one party state where nothing ever changes (we're almost there now).

Circumstances are constantly changing and we should always be open to new and radical ideas to improve things otherwise we end up with a government that literally doesn't know how to react to new challenges.

 

[estebanrey]

That kind of attitude just stifles innovative thinking and leads ultimately to an one party state where nothing ever changes (we're almost there now).

Circumstances are constantly changing and we should always be open to new and radical ideas to improve things otherwise we end up with a government that literally doesn't know how to react to new challenges.

How is Jeremy Corbyn bringing 'innovative' ideas, he's just advocating 1980s style trade unionism and public ownership of the railways.

I don't disagree that the world changes but it doesn't change radically overnight, it evolves just as party policy should. Jumping from one system to a markedly different one isn't evolution, it is revolution.

 

[ThePirateHulk]

How is Jeremy Corbyn bringing 'innovative' ideas, he's just advocating 1980s style Unionism and public ownership of the railways.

I don't believe I said he was. I just used him as a demonstration of how British society reacts to anything even slightly outside of the status quo and how it is resulting in american style politics where anything left of centre is demonised by the vested interests of the media and the current establishment.

I don't disagree that the world changes but it doesn't change radically, it evolves just as party policy should. Jumping from one system to a markedly different one isn't evolution, it is revolution.

Party policy can't evolve if there is consensus between the only two party's with any chance of winning the election. That's stagnation, not evolution.

 

[estebanrey]

I don't believe I said he was. I just used him as a demonstration of how British society reacts to anything even slightly outside of the status quo and how it is resulting in american style politics where anything left of centre is demonised by the vested interests of the media and the current establishment.

No the public reject knee jerk jumps to markedly different systems, they are split of the finer details of centrist policies. The public would also demonise radical right wing ideas like the return of workhouses or the abolition of state funded education (which is why none of the main parties advocate them).

To some Americans, the idea of as National Health Service or "socialised medicine" as they call it, is at worst abhorrent and at best debatable whereas in the UK the NHS is a treated like a sacred cow.

Party policy can't evolve if there is consensus between the only two party's with any chance of winning the election. That's stagnation, not evolution.

But there isn't total consensus between Labour and the Tories, you only think so because you have this mindset that Labour should oppose every idea the Conservatives come up with otherwise they might as well jump into bed with them.

 

[lovelyhead]

Oh noes!

The cult of the SNP keeps spreading!

http://ukgeneralelection2020.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/council-by-election-results-30th-july.html

 

[thep02]

How does you posting that extract change what I have been saying throughout this thread?

OK just one more time for your benefit:

If the SNP have a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum during the lifetime of the next parliament (for instance) and the people vote for them, then the SNP will have a mandate to hold said referendum.

This would not be contradictory to the extract you posted.

People saying they should not have another for some arbitrary time frame are just being undemocratic.

This.

How come I never meet devout English Unionists except on ocuk, most English folk I know couldn't give a flying thought whether Scotland is independent or not.

 

[Tefal]

If the SNP have a manifesto commitment to hold a referendum during the lifetime of the next parliament (for instance) and the people vote for them, then the SNP will have a mandate to hold said referendum.

you keep saying "if" they don't now and cant this parliament can they?

as theyd need a new ge.

 

[lovelyhead]

you keep saying "if" they don't now and cant this parliament can they?

as theyd need a new ge.

Next year sonny.

 

[Tefal]

Next year sonny.

thought wed just had the general election its 4-5 years away now isnt it?

 

[TheGamingGeneral]

thought wed just had the general election its 4-5 years away now isnt it?

Think he means the scottish elections next year

 

[Tefal]

Think he means the scottish elections next year

but isnt that just for the assembly members and **** all to do with national stuff?

claiming a mandate based on that would be sketchy at best if the turn outs are anything like they are for us with the welsh assembly.

easpecily as it would potentialy go against the wishes of those that voted at the ge

 

[TheGamingGeneral]

but isnt that just for the assembly members and **** all to do with national stuff?

claiming a mandate based on that would be sketchy at best if the turn outs are anything like they are for us with the welsh assembly.

easpecily as it would potentialy go against the wishes of those that voted at the ge

The referendum last year was from a manifesto pledge in the 2011 Scottish elections from what I remember.

As far as putting it in this time, could be extremely controversial. If they do , I am not convinced enough has changed to alter the result. Even if it’s a closer margin, two defeats in quick succession would surely be damaging.

If they don't, much of the support they have enjoyed since September I think will go ape **** and see it as a betrayal.

 

[do_ron_ron]

Oh noes!

The cult of the SNP keeps spreading!

http://ukgeneralelection2020.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/council-by-election-results-30th-july.html

It is more about the quality of the opposition. Of the two main opposition parties in Scotland, Labour are in disarray after it was revealed by their own leader that she was just a branch manager taking orders from London for the supposedly independent Scottish parliament and the two contenders for the leader not wanting to change the relationship. The Lib/Dems are still being hammered and not many people bother about the fourth party. So that leaves....

 

[lovelyhead]

but isnt that just for the assembly members and **** all to do with national stuff?

claiming a mandate based on that would be sketchy at best if the turn outs are anything like they are for us with the welsh assembly.

easpecily as it would potentialy go against the wishes of those that voted at the ge

You really have no idea what you are talking about.

It is more about the quality of the opposition. Of the two main opposition parties in Scotland, Labour are in disarray after it was revealed by their own leader that she was just a branch manager taking orders from London for the supposedly independent Scottish parliament and the two contenders for the leader not wanting to change the relationship. The Lib/Dems are still being hammered and not many people bother about the fourth party. So that leaves....

But everyone on this thread keeps telling me that people that vote who for the SNP are basically members of a cult. This thread has left me very confused? Am I a member of a cult or did I vote for them because there is no one better?

I think this is a problem we Scots have.

Wir aw jist a wee bit too stupid tae look efter oorsels. Wi need yon clever folks fae London tae mak oor decisions for us. I'm fair gled thit we hae thum tae tak care o' the burden thit is yon north sea ehil an the like. An if it wisnae fir oor neighbours doon sooth gein us some eh their taxes, we wid still be digin trenches tae git yon peat oot the groond tae heat oor but n bens.

 

[xs2man]

The referendum last year was from a manifesto pledge in the 2011 Scottish elections from what I remember.

As far as putting it in this time, could be extremely controversial. If they do , I am not convinced enough has changed to alter the result. Even if it’s a closer margin, two defeats in quick succession would surely be damaging.

If they don't, much of the support they have enjoyed since September I think will go ape **** and see it as a betrayal.

I'm not convinced it would be any closer. For any of the few who voted no, and are now thinking of voting yes, for whatever reason that might be confused:), I suspect that would be matched by a swing from Yes to No by people realising "darn, that dude from Tracey Island was right, oil prices ARE volatile and now the numbers dont work, dodged a bullet there". As if they ever did though.

 

[TheGamingGeneral]

It will be interest to see which side bleeds more of it's support. I suspect the polling companies will be asking the question next year when we got into the elections (by that I mean asking people how they voted in the referendum and if faced with that choice again how they would vote now, rather than saying x% of votes to the SNP=votes for indy.

 

[Tefal]

You really have no idea what you are talking about.

genuine question do you believe the SNP will add it to their manifesto?

Oh and the turn out for the Scottish elections is typically 50% that's pretty poor for a "mandate".

admittedly better than wales though we barely manage 40% most years.

 

[V F]

Wir aw jist a wee bit too stupid tae look efter oorsels. Wi need yon clever folks fae London tae mak oor decisions for us. I'm fair gled thit we hae thum tae tak care o' the burden thit is yon north sea ehil an the like. An if it wisnae fir oor neighbours doon sooth gein us some eh their taxes, we wid still be digin trenches tae git yon peat oot the groond tae heat oor but n bens.

Looks like a Glasgow Rangers forum.