Seven dead after Hawker Hunter hits cars

SS-89 · 25 Aug 2015 at 12:23

Aloreth said:
No sure that I have much to add but I think this is a very reasonable view point.

Agreed

I understand why they have banned it temporarily but imo all air shows and stunts should be done away from built up areas (i.e over the sea) which would more than likely avoid a situation like this occurring.

Harlequin · 25 Aug 2015 at 12:24

A27 shut till at least saturday

Greebo · 25 Aug 2015 at 12:29

SS-89 said:
Agreed

I understand why they have banned it temporarily but imo all air shows and stunts should be done away from built up areas (i.e over the sea) which would more than likely avoid a situation like this occurring.

Some expert on breakfast tv this morning made a good point about that.

He said we have to be careful that in trying to make something safer that we dont actually make it more dangerous. He said this is the first public casualties for years but planes get into bother quite often. If they were forced to be held over the sea then there would be many more deaths of pilots. He said only recently a good friend of his had to crash land in a spitfire. He was injured but okay. He said if that had been over the sea he would definitely be dead.

Mr Joshua · 25 Aug 2015 at 12:47

If they know the risks involved I don't have a problem with that, greebo. They can decide for themselves whether it's it, without risking other parties who had nothing to do with the event.

SS-89 · 25 Aug 2015 at 13:14

Greebo said:
Some expert on breakfast tv this morning made a good point about that.

He said we have to be careful that in trying to make something safer that we dont actually make it more dangerous. He said this is the first public casualties for years but planes get into bother quite often. If they were forced to be held over the sea then there would be many more deaths of pilots. He said only recently a good friend of his had to crash land in a spitfire. He was injured but okay. He said if that had been over the sea he would definitely be dead.

Mr Joshua said:
If they know the risks involved I don't have a problem with that, greebo. They can decide for themselves whether it's it, without risking other parties who had nothing to do with the event.

Exactly isn't this the same argument made about people getting in cars? As a pilot you must realise that getting into planes and pushing them to their limits carries an inherent risk of death.

I think that if the trade off to reducing risk to spectators and innocent bystanders is to transfer risk to the pilot then that's a reasonable adjustment in my view.

balky12 · 25 Aug 2015 at 13:15

Nitefly said:
Commercial planes gotta commerce.

Cars gotta car.

Boats gotta boat.

Old planes gotta loop over roads though? Hmm.

Was that a legitimate argument?

'DAD, DAD, DAD CAN WE GO TO THAT AIRSHOW AND WATCH PLANES FLYING NORMALLY?!?!? PLEEEEASEEE!!!'

It's entertainment. With a bit of risk. People don't want to see an tragic accident like has happened; however I bet crowds wouldn't be as big if there was zero risk.

What next? Stop the red bull air race? Or just get them to fly 'normally'.

Basher · 25 Aug 2015 at 13:21

balky12 said:
Was that a legitimate argument?

'DAD, DAD, DAD CAN WE GO TO THAT AIRSHOW AND WATCH PLANES FLYING NORMALLY?!?!? PLEEEEASEEE!!!'

It's entertainment. With a bit of risk. People don't want to see an tragic accident like has happened; however I bet crowds wouldn't be as big if there was zero risk.

What next? Stop the red bull air race? Or just get them to fly 'normally'.

It's not the risk that attract people to air shows. It's the fact that you don't normally see such a variety of aircraft fly over your house doing cool stuff.

CaptainRAVE · 25 Aug 2015 at 13:30

Some media outlets really need to be restrained. Pictures of body parts all over the road are a little over the top tbh.

Dis86 · 25 Aug 2015 at 13:33

CaptainRAVE said:
Some media outlets really need to be restrained. Pictures of body parts all over the road are a little over the top tbh.

Not seen anything of the sort on an aftermath video where people were on the scene before emergency services. Was just plane parts and other debris.
All those that died seemed to be in the cars still or just straight up...gone

arknor · 25 Aug 2015 at 13:34

JBuk said:
No not that one, if I remember rightly it was in the US and the harder the pilot tried to recover the plane the harder the plane fought to do the opposite because of the software

I think I saw that on aircrash investigation or whatever it's called.

the planes computer was doing anti stall or something.

it's nearly always pilot error on that program and a bunch of crashes wouldn't have happened if they had proper training and let the computer do it's thing

Glaucus · 25 Aug 2015 at 13:39

And there's been a fair few the other way, where the computers trying to crash the plane, due to failed or wrong sensor data, and if pilots had more training and didn't trust computers so much, they could have easily turned the auto pilot off and recovered the plane easily.

Blackjack Davy · 25 Aug 2015 at 13:58

Well now, looks like an outbreak of reasonableness here, didn't think I'd see that anytime soon on GD.

Looks like pilot error predictably, and was "showing off" at the time, he should have been at no lower than 500ft and not the 100ft he was at, and manouvere should have been within the bounds of the airstrip and not over the road:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/shoreham-airshow-tragedy-former-raf-6314673

balky12 said:
Was that a legitimate argument?

'DAD, DAD, DAD CAN WE GO TO THAT AIRSHOW AND WATCH PLANES FLYING NORMALLY?!?!? PLEEEEASEEE!!!'

It's entertainment. With a bit of risk. People don't want to see an tragic accident like has happened; however I bet crowds wouldn't be as big if there was zero risk.

What next? Stop the red bull air race? Or just get them to fly 'normally'.

Thats the "gladiator" argument, they used to say the same thing about Grand Prix races, the thrill of the risk of death was part of the sport, they said.

Things changed. Mainly from the drivers themselves who were sick and tired of seeing their friends and colleagues massacred on the racetrack. The authorities resisted but eventually the sport was cleaned up to one of the safest motor sports, events like Ayrton Senna's death are rare now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VtQ9Uc062M
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x14el38_grand-prix-the-killer-years-documentary_auto
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00z8v18

doofer · 25 Aug 2015 at 14:06

Rhyl Airshow gets the go-ahead after the events in Shoreham.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-34038694

Harlequin · 25 Aug 2015 at 14:45

Blackjack Davy said:
Well now, looks like an outbreak of reasonableness here, didn't think I'd see that anytime soon on GD.

Looks like pilot error predictably, and was "showing off" at the time, he should have been at no lower than 500ft and not the 100ft he was at, and manouvere should have been within the bounds of the airstrip and not over the road:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/shoreham-airshow-tragedy-former-raf-6314673

Thats the "gladiator" argument, they used to say the same thing about Grand Prix races, the thrill of the risk of death was part of the sport, they said.

Things changed. Mainly from the drivers themselves who were sick and tired of seeing their friends and colleagues massacred on the racetrack. The authorities resisted but eventually the sport was cleaned up to one of the safest motor sports, events like Ayrton Senna's death are rare now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VtQ9Uc062M
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x14el38_grand-prix-the-killer-years-documentary_auto
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00z8v18

that diagram is wrong the entry was more to the south but he did roatate to line up with a low pass on the runway. reading PPRUNE , the entry was low and slow , apparently on 1 video a voice of another pilot is heard saying ` this is going to be tight`, and suspicion he stalled it over the top - should have `thrown it away` at that point and not carry on , also suspicion the aircraft was down on power

Greebo · 25 Aug 2015 at 14:54

\I seriously thought that was a joke about Rhyl and they wanting planes to crash there until I clicked the link..................

Nutella33 · 25 Aug 2015 at 17:21

Caged said:
Genuine question, has a non-prototype aircraft ever crashed due to a computer problem?

Just military?

Gripen, A400m and Typhoon come to the immediate mind. I'm sure theres more.

Blackjack Davy said:
Things changed. Mainly from the drivers themselves who were sick and tired of seeing their friends and colleagues massacred on the racetrack. The authorities resisted but eventually the sport was cleaned up to one of the safest motor sports,

However UK air shows are already remarkably safe, and as its appearing to be pilot error breaking the rules a rewrite of the book doesnt seem like its required. The only way you can stop this happening again is if the pilot shows signs of needless risk prior to accident (Like Arthur Holland)

~edit~ oh and Chinook! although its a helicopter

Nitefly · 25 Aug 2015 at 19:22

balky12 said:
Was that a legitimate argument?

Yes.

You don't need to stop all risk completely. Just... don't do a loop the loop in an old aircraft, hell, any aircraft, over a busy public road? Seems obvious damage limitation to me, but hindsight is a wonderful thing!

bloodiedathame · 25 Aug 2015 at 19:34

Why do people seem to think old planes are incapable of performing stunts?

TaKeN · 25 Aug 2015 at 20:28

bloodiedathame said:
Why do people seem to think old planes are incapable of performing stunts?

Maybe people question the maintenance standards of privately owned Aircraft?

opstrat · 25 Aug 2015 at 20:47

so the scottish airshow is going ahead next month.

saturday the display is over the water in ayr and sunday its over prestwick airport.

volunteering at it this year and have to attend a safety brief at the airport at the weekend. a lot of this will possibly come up now.