A friend, religion, and what to do?

ICDP said:
Straw man argument. I never said the existence of God was impossible, just unlikely given the lack of tangib...hmm, I reckon you know what I am going to say next.

Wrong, people making this type of statement are doing it purely objectively based on the total lack of tangib...hmm, I reckon you know what I am going to say next. ;)
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Oh now I'm really confused.

On the one hand you personally don't say the he can't exist, on the other hand you agree with people saying that he can't exist.

Which are you going to settle upon? That he can't possibly exist or that he possibly could?

Again, I am making no assertions in this thread at all, from my first post here. I'm merely countering the assertions that some people in this thread made that "he 100% does not exist".
 
Dolph said:
No scientist worth their education will take a position either way on an untested hypothesis. That choice can only be made using unverifiable beliefs.
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Exactly. People saying "he doesn't exist, 100%" are doing so on faith. They have a personal belief in his non-existence.

Science doesn't concern itself with God, rational thought cannot disprove his existence.

That's all I ever said here, in response to Dimple I think it was.
 
I often wonder what draws people to Christianity over the other faiths and religions.

There are plenty of easier options for enlightenment or for example, finding ways to do good. The vitriol on here towards Christianity, notably over other religions and faiths is not uncommon in all walks of life, such as in the workplace or amongst peer groups.

Seems to be quite a cost to it these days. More so in counties where it cost people their lives or a prison sentence rather than an argument.
 
Zethor said:
Yes, it's the fault of the tool being used, namely, the brain of the person who suffers from hallucinations.
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Then your dogma is just as bad as religious dogma. A very narrow-minded viewpoint.


The boundary you speak of separates reality from imagination. The supernatural does not exist , it's product of imagination and it's pointless to investigate it due to the limitless nature of imagination. It would be like attempting to find the largest natural number, all you have to do is to add one to any possible result and the answer can never be found. There is no answer, there's nothing to investigate so doing so is an utter waste of time.
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Fascinating you chose the supernatural yet not subjective states to belittle and yet it is in the same category. What do you have to say here? Nothing? Well that doesnt surprise me ;)

You don't understand how science works, the dark matter hypothesis is not the result of a dream some scientist had, it is the result of observations.. in other words, indirect evidence. Something is holding the galaxies together and something is causing gravitational lensing on huge scales, whether it's dark matter or something else, we will figure it out sooner or later. Your gods, ghosts and pixies leave no trace, no direct or indirect evidence so it's perfectly reasonable to state they don't exist.
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1. I didn't say it was the result of a dream so....straw man. /clap

2. You admit something which is unknown makes up a large part of the known universe (according to mainstream theory). What we know is miniscule compared to what is out there. But your arrogance that will admit of no evidence out there which doesn't fit your own dogma is laughable :D

3. Again did i mention ghosts, pixies and gods? No i didnt. The example of the supernatural is to illustrate a point: a series of phenomena which people experience which is as yet unexplained. You dismiss it as imagination and hallucination. You are only showing your own ignorance and small-minded nature.

Its fascinating how fanatical you stick to your own dogma.
 
Scrutinize said:
I often wonder what draws people to Christianity over the other faiths and religions.

There are plenty of easier options for enlightenment or for example, finding ways to do good. The vitriol on here towards Christianity, notably over other religions and faiths is not uncommon in all walks of life, such as in the workplace or amongst peer groups.

Seems to be quite a cost to it these days. More so in counties where it cost people their lives or a prison sentence rather than an argument.
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I can't honestly say I've noticed a bias against Christianity vs any of the other religions. I think the outspoken atheists hate all religions equally :p
 
dirtychinchilla said:
Not a single one of those names has lived in the 21st century, and barely any of them even lived in the 20th century. We live in an age of enlightenment, where people don't need the millstone of religion around their necks to get along in life.
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lol...did you really just **** on the work and merit of some of the greatest scientists in western history?
 
Depends to some extent what his position on it all is. If you ask him about it does he respond like he's quoting religious facts back at you or do you think he understands that faith is taking a leap of faith between what is fact and what you're prepared to believe in. It kind of depends if he's content in the faith route, comfort in believing something could be a certain way as opposed to categorically believing the whole thing as actually having happened without any proof.
 
Trying to force an atheist view when you don't want them forcing a religious one would be hypocritical.
 
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matt_fsr said:
Is that just me being selfish though? Am I best off just leaving him to it, as it's his own life and choices?
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Yes, you are best leaving him to it. It's best not to concern yourself with other people's lives and opinions, instead focus on your own. It's not your responsibility to worry what other people want to do, only worry about what you want to do.
 
I do not understand people's need to prove/disprove that some people are wrong/right about their beliefs, and be so antagonistic about it. I do not think people are trying to prove that their beliefs are the authoritative definition of the truth, neither are they expecting people to believe/understand polar opposites.

There are too many unknowns, and variables on either side to be conclusive either way.

I'm scientific through education and profession, but in my private side of life I have my beliefs. They do not clash, as they are not mutually exclusive to my daily life. There is more to faith/religion than just belief in deity as has been mentioned many times.

The sooner there is a bit of tolerance, compassion and acceptance that people will and can have different beliefs these "arguments" will keep going. However, no one ever "wins" and frankly it is a waste of energy, I'd far rather put this effort chatting about things that help the world progress rather flogging a dead horse which ends in stalemate as usual.
 
CREATIVE!11 said:
Yeah why has this reached 9 pages? lord have mercy....

Thread was over in the first 2 basically leave said friend alone whatever #yolo as long as he doesn't push views on him.

Done.
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its quite funny how people moanarse about religious people pushing thier views on them but find it perfectly acceptable the other way around
 
FoxEye said:
I can't honestly say I've noticed a bias against Christianity vs any of the other religions. I think the outspoken atheists hate all religions equally :p
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If this person had become a Buddhist, no one would bat an eyelid. If they had become a Muslim I doubt it would have even become a thread.

If they had moved to atheism from a religion you would not get all the different faith/religious groups creating a 10 page thread.
 
Freefaller said:
I do not understand people's need to prove/disprove that some people are wrong/right about their beliefs, and be so antagonistic about it. I do not think people are trying to prove that their beliefs are the authoritative definition of the truth, neither are they expecting people to believe/understand polar opposites.
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I suppose, fundamentally, it boils down to human nature. I have said for many years that to ever have peace in the world you would have to dehumanise people because we are an overbearing and particularly violent species by nature. We are still animals, just far more advanced than any others on the planet, and we are fallible. Perhaps it is by design, or perhaps it persists because it is a natural necessity?

If we all lived in peace and nobody ever did anything 'wrong' what benchmark would be have to judge our own morality? If we were all equal, what incentive would there be to develop and achieve? If we all agreed on the same thing what reason would we ever have to question or challenge? This fundamental conflict is what creates change and to a large degree is the catalyst for progress. Without it we would become immobile and stagnate.

To fix the problem you would have to remove our nature, remove our emotions and make us operate like robots for the greater good. In nature the world tends to turn based on equals and opposites but most importantly balance. You can't have love without it's opposite existing and whilst it exists, it is a tool that can be used for harm. But if it didn't exist how would we properly appreciate Love? It is like hot and cold. How can you fully appreciate a roaring fire if you have never been cold, or a cooling breeze if you have never been warm? That contrast is essential in our comprehension of our surroundings and in maintaining our moral and ethical compass.

What we see here in this thread and on the forum in general is that same phenomenon in a microcosm.

So to conclude, humans gonna human! :p
 
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Scrutinize said:
I often wonder what draws people to Christianity over the other faiths and religions.

There are plenty of easier options for enlightenment or for example, finding ways to do good. The vitriol on here towards Christianity, notably over other religions and faiths is not uncommon in all walks of life, such as in the workplace or amongst peer groups.

Seems to be quite a cost to it these days. More so in counties where it cost people their lives or a prison sentence rather than an argument.
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Well, the big difference with Christianity is it deals with mankinds most fundamental issue – sin – by not actually having to do anything but accept someone.

The bible states that all have sinned against God but rather than allowing His creation to go to hell, He sent His Only Son Jesus to not only take the sin of the world upon Himself but suffer the punishment sin deserves (death). Jesus didn’t go to hell as He didn’t sin personally but by dying on the Cross, carrying our sin and rising 3 days later, all have the ability to confess their sins to Jesus, ask for His forgiveness and ask Him to come into their lives... that is what it means to be a Christian.

It isn’t about works – look at the thief on the cross next to Jesus, he didn’t have time to collect for the poor, open an orphanage or anything else man may think is good, he was a thief and his capital punishment was death. He didn’t ask Jesus to get him out of the situation as he knew his wrongdoing and was paying the price, yet all he asked of Jesus was “remember me” – Jesus knew the thief understood who Jesus was and gave the thief the promise that that day he would be with Him in Paradise.

If I were caught for speeding at 90mph in a 20mph zone, if I addressed the judge and said “your honour, I am sorry for breaking the speed limit, I know I was going 70mph more than I should have been but I have been driving for 20 years and never once broke the limit, until now so on that basis I shouldn't be punished” – do you think the thousands of times I didn’t break the limit makes up for the one time I did? No.

What the difference between Christianity and every other religion is that it’s leader – Jesus – who is very much alive. Also, all other religions require an adherence to a set of rules and regulations that, if broken, will incur consequences. One example is Catholicism (which is not Christianity BTW); if one mass is missed then that person will go to purgatory according to the Council of Trent (Catholics doctrines and dogmas)... it is then up to family and friends to not only pray for that individual but buy candles and do all sort of other things to get them out of Hell. That religion gives no guarantee of heaven to the individual during their life time. Suddenly their confession of Jesus dying for their sins is such that even the Son of God’s death and resurrection isn’t enough to keep them from hell... that isn’t a loving and reassuring God in my book.

Every world religion requires some adherence to some rule or creed. The difference with Christianity is that the believer has asked Christ into their life, Jesus is living in them through the Holy Spirit. When God looks at the Christian, He doesn’t see a self-professing pious and highly generous and self-sacrificing man or even the person he actually is who daily makes a heap of mistakes, still sins, sometimes without even knowing it – no, he doesn’t see that person, He sees Jesus.

What the Christian learns throughout their walk with Jesus is that there is nothing one can do that can save themselves from punishment for sin, other than following Christ and accepting the free gift of salvation, by His grace. Yes that involves keeping to commandments but actually there are only two:

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

What that last verse means is that if one were to put the first two commandments into practice, things like the Ten Commandments etc will naturally follow.

Also, the typical comments about animal sacrifices are Old Testament commands which Christ came to fulfil and are no longer practiced (but relevant to understand), although some Jews do adhere to.

Sadly there are the phrase-coined ‘bible bashers’ out there and yes a lot go about it in the wrong way and I'm sorry for that. There are others who go to Church and have hugely contradictory lives to what they profess to believe, again I am sorry for that.
All men are at some point or area in their lives, hypocrites. The point of all this that if we can look past the Christians and look to the Jesus of the bible, things make a lot more sense.
 
I love the end scene in Star Trek The Final Frontier where they think they have found God.
Everybody else is convinced except Kirk.
I'd be Kirk.
 
BuffetSlayer said:
I suppose, fundamentally, it boils down to human nature. I have said for many years that to ever have peace in the world you would have to dehumanise people because we are an overbearing and particularly violent species by nature. We are still animals, just far more advanced than any others on the planet, and we are fallible. Perhaps it is by design, or perhaps it persists because it is a natural necessity?

If we all lived in peace and nobody ever did anything 'wrong' what benchmark would be have to judge our own morality? If we were all equal, what incentive would there be to develop and achieve? If we all agreed on the same thing what reason would we ever have to question or challenge? This fundamental conflict is what creates change and to a large degree is the catalyst for progress. Without it we would become immobile and stagnate.

To fix the problem you would have to remove our nature, remove our emotions and make us operate like robots for the greater good. In nature the world tends to turn based on equals and opposites but most importantly balance. You can't have love without it's opposite existing and whilst it exists, it is a tool that can be used for harm. But if it didn't exist how would we properly appreciate Love? It is like hot and cold. How can you fully appreciate a roaring fire if you have never been cold, or a cooling breeze if you have never been warm? That contrast is essential in our comprehension of our surroundings and in maintaining our moral and ethical compass.

What we see here in this thread and on the forum in general is that same phenomenon in a microcosm.

So to conclude, humans gonna human! :p
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I think that's a very well put post. Thanks for taking the time to write it. :)
 
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