How far is this VW thing going to go?

wesley · 23 Sep 2015 at 13:56

VED is based on CO2, not NOx so it wont change anything to us here

Diddums · 23 Sep 2015 at 13:58

randal said:
I doubt it'll spell the end of diesel cars, but it's going to mean some pretty far reaching changes to the industry that's for sure.

At the moment the industry seems to regulate itself with regards to lab testing, I would imagine that there will be some serious regulatory overhauls and the installation of a new body overseeing manufacturers.

I can also see this spreading to other vehicle makers as VW can't be the only ones in the industry doing this sort of thing, give it a week or so and they'll start crawling out of the woodwork.

With regards to the current VW cars out there, there's got to be a recall up to a certain age to get additional filtration installed and a software update to the ECU. I would expect MOT regs to change to include a test of these systems as well.

The final point that irks me is that VW have said all "new" cars don't suffer from this issue, so how long have they known that this was coming?

According to this article, this investigation started in "early 2014" which has potentially given VW loads of time to prepare.

Six6siX · 23 Sep 2015 at 13:58

Yay for more overly complex and failure prone emissions control systems to save what amounts to a few hundred quid a year for the vast majority of people.

randal · 23 Sep 2015 at 14:03

Diddums said:
According to this article, this investigation started in "early 2014" which has potentially given VW loads of time to prepare.

In December of 2014, VW said it had a fix and recalled nearly 500,000 diesels in the U.S. for a software patch. But while VW held its breath, CARB continued to test Volkswagen diesels on a regular basis and found that the cars were still exceeding the state’s nitrous-oxide-emissions limits. CARB made its finding known to both Volkswagen and the EPA on July 8.

Lol, a "fix"? I have a rudimentary understanding of fuel mapping systems, but for them to implement a fix wouldn't that mean they'd have to decrease the power output of the engine across the range to reduce emissions?

Then they're into a whole new world of pain by selling a product that isn't up to specification, the least of their worries at the moment admittedly.

So CARB approached VW and said "this isn't right" and gave them time to fix it, they must have known this wasn't an oversight and was intended. So that's either due process, or setting them up for an inevitable fall.

jasonmorris · 23 Sep 2015 at 14:07

Don't forget Audi, Bentley and Bugatti. Veyron diesel anybody?

PapaLazaru · 23 Sep 2015 at 14:14

We were going to sell it in a few weeks anyway, but the missus had ordered me to sell our VW Golf Bluemotion immediately as she is concerned that they are involved with the dodgy software. I kind of see her point as they will be forever tainted if it turns out the Bluemotion part is just a scam.

I've booked it in on Friday to get rid of it. New car coming on Monday anyway.

Outcast · 23 Sep 2015 at 14:22

Although I really wish they'd include Steiner, Cripps & Stalin into their scripts !!

Chuk_Chuk · 23 Sep 2015 at 14:26

Me and my mate were having a laugh about this because it couldn't have been much of a secret if we were learning about it during our lectures 2/3 years ago.

The main reason behind this is that cars were producing 10 to 40 times the amount of NOx during normal mode than test mode. Maybe if the difference wasn't so large this could have been swept under the rug.

Depending on how much the public attention this gets, a lot of of information regarding the automotive industry testing practices could come to light.

cainer · 23 Sep 2015 at 14:31

How far is this VW thing going to go?

well its already made it from the motors forum to GD.. who knows where it'l end up!

Diddums · 23 Sep 2015 at 14:33

This guy explains it quite well for those who don't understand.

ChroniC · 23 Sep 2015 at 14:34

I hadn't heard about this, and couldn't fathom how it affected thier cars, since they are emissions tested on MOT's, which would just show the difference from the stated emissions.

This though is pretty shocking. How this software knows is something I'd like to know.

How did they do it?

By installing a piece of software into computers on its cars that recognise when the car is being tested – a so-called "defeat device". This fine-tunes the engine’s performance to limit nitrogen oxide emissions.
When used on the road, the emissions levels shoot back up

Diddums · 23 Sep 2015 at 14:37

ChroniC said:
How this software knows is something I'd like to know.

There are loads of theories about this, the more logical ones are:

The car goes into test mode when the traction control is turned off (which is required when putting a car on a rolling road).

The car goes in to test mode when an OBD reader is connected.

The car goes in to test mode when the bonnet is open.

baz_ · 23 Sep 2015 at 14:38

There a lot more to come out of the wood work with this, I dont think its just VW, personally I sell new VW's at the moment hasnt affected anything here YET, but watch this space!

Outcast · 23 Sep 2015 at 14:39

The ECU could even detect when the rear ABS sensors are stationary

gothic_hobbit · 23 Sep 2015 at 14:45

This could give a real boost to the electric car industry.

mrk · 23 Sep 2015 at 14:48

Having recently come back from a country where Diesel is virtually non existent, and then breathing in inner city London air - You can sympathise with those that wear those masks over here. The air is just far far dirtier and I wouldn't be surprised if there is some legitimacy to that claim.

Six6siX · 23 Sep 2015 at 14:49

gothic_hobbit said:
This could give a real boost to the electric car industry.

I think it could also boost the petrol turbo car industry. Get it? Boost - turbo?

Also, people were generally buying diesels for economy and the small turbo'd petrols are staggeringly efficient! Assuming they aren't using similar trickery for emissions (less NOx so, not an issue really) this could be a good thing and push the smelly dag dags off the road.

Outcast · 23 Sep 2015 at 14:53

gothic_hobbit said:
This could give a real boost to the electric car industry.

I'm hoping this will be a catalyst for a bigger push towards Electric propulsion.

I want to change my car in about 4 years and hopefully they will be readily available with most of the bugs ironed out and at a reasonable cost.

I can dream !

ChroniC · 23 Sep 2015 at 15:01

Diddums said:
There are loads of theories about this, the more logical ones are:

The car goes into test mode when the traction control is turned off (which is required when putting a car on a rolling road).

The car goes in to test mode when an OBD reader is connected.

The car goes in to test mode when the bonnet is open.

How was this discovered exactly, was it noticed in the ecu code or something.
Thought that alone would give away the reason how.

Greebo · 23 Sep 2015 at 15:01

gord said:
Really? I thought they had deceived the nitrogen oxides test, not the CO2 which is used to calculate car tax.

Well nobody knows if they have cheated the co2 system but already its been said that they have with petrol co2 emissions.

Plus from 1st Sept all diesels have to be Euro 6 compliant (which matchs the US standard which these failed) so all VAG diesel cars bought since 1st Spet are likely to be illegal in the UK (and EU) and cant be resold by the private buyer.