Hajj pligrimage crush

In a country where the extreme Wahhabi form of Islam permits the stoning to death of human beings, hundreds are trampled to death trying to stone the devil.

Maybe Allah is trying to tell them something.
 
They should limit the pilgrimage to one visit allowed only.
Also, if someone fall, others just trample over the poor sole. No help for your fellow man.
 
I don't don religion in any form.

I do know what it feels like to lose a loved one. I'm sure there are families who have lost children, fathers, friends and loved ones. Regardless of how, or where they lost their lives I'm sure they will be missed.

I think it's far too easy to become desensitised to loss and heartache. Losing a loved one is hard regardless of religion/culture/race. Many will have felt that today first hand and I feel for them.
 
lunar said:
They should limit the pilgrimage to one visit allowed only.
Also, if someone fall, others just trample over the poor sole. No help for your fellow man.
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I'm afraid that's the wrong way of putting it. Maybe think about how a very large crowd moving in one direction (with people all over the world) would act if someone at the front fell.
 
DampDog said:
I don't don religion in any form.

I do know what it feels like to lose a loved one. I'm sure there are families who have lost children, fathers, friends and loved ones. Regardless of how, or where they lost their lives I'm sure they will be missed.

I think it's far too easy to become desensitised to loss and heartache. Losing a loved one is hard regardless of religion/culture/race. Many will have felt that today first hand and I feel for them.
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My sister showed me a video today of the crane incident where a woman was with her 2 kids and the roof fell on them and she managed to get out the way. The got crushed to death and she was franticly trying to get them. I had to look away cos I couldn't handle it. Dunno how she watched it. :[
 
So I was watching a bit of this on the news this morning and they had a Former president of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, Iqbal Patel, being interviewed and my draw dropped at some of his comments. A selection:

Iqbal Patel said:
"On the one hand, it is very sad to hear that some 700 people have lost their lives, but on the other hand, any Muslim who goes to Mecca is prepared for the ultimate," Mr Patel said.

"It's unfortunate for the families that somebody they love has passed away, but the ultimate is that if you have the unfortunate that you pass away in Mecca then you go straight to heaven," Mr Patel said.

"So that's one of those things that there is the silver lining.

"Something like this, you take it in your stride.

"If it happens, it happens, and if you're lucky or unlucky, depending on which way you look at it."
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I found this staggering. Anyone here feel this way? I really can't understand how anyone can be so blasé about this tragedy, but I'm not Muslim myself, so I don't know, perhaps... I just don't know?
 
There was a quote from the Saudi errrm person? Minsister? Prince? in charge of the whole debacle on radio 4 this morning. Apparently and rightly so the Iranians and other nations are pointing the finger at the Saudi's for not organising things properly. This guy however said it was all the pilgrims fault for not following instructions and besides it was God's will.
 
Freefaller said:
I don't think the beliefs are a problem, after all they use cars and computers it's not as if they are a technologically backward civilisation. Perhaps they have somewhat more "traditional" behaviours, and that is part of their culture and they should be able to enjoy it - but irrespective of their beliefs it shouldn't cost the lives of people.

In fact it should be because of their beliefs that they should realise the magnitude of work they need to do to allow people to follow their "medieval beliefs" without being put into danger.
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Women can't drive, women have to cover up, women can't work, women can't go out on their own. Women ion general are treated abhorrently in Islam, calling it "traditional" is an insult to the women.
 
Metallifux said:
There was a quote from the Saudi errrm person? Minsister? Prince? in charge of the whole debacle on radio 4 this morning. Apparently and rightly so the Iranians and other nations are pointing the finger at the Saudi's for not organising things properly. This guy however said it was all the pilgrims fault for not following instructions and besides it was God's will.
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Yeah I heard that, he was their minister for health I think, not much different to South Yorkshire police blaming Liverpool fans for Hillsborough. I've heard the "Allah's will" argument when Muslims die before too.
 
Allah can say what Allah wants and will whatever he wants, not that anyone will ever hear or see evidence of this. Truth of the matter is, incompetent management of an event, people died because those in charge cannot plan things properly.
 
OldCoals said:
Women can't drive, women have to cover up, women can't work, women can't go out on their own. Women ion general are treated abhorrently in Islam, calling it "traditional" is an insult to the women.
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Yep this is the part I just cannot get past no matter how it is framed. It is also inexcusable that the West will call out for example China's human rights record, while Saudi Arabia escapes criticism of it's "culture".
 
I'm trying to get my head around the mechanics of what caused so many deaths. The word stampede invokes images of lots of people running very fast over the top of other people, but looking at the videos the people don't look like they've been beaten black and blue.

I'm assuming in this case it was a crush caused by too many people trying to get into the same space, in which case you would have to be pressed against from all directions to such an extent that you couldn't breathe and basically suffocated. Or had your chest caved in. For that to happen to so many people in one area is mind-boggling.

That tent city is vast and everyone is funneled down onto the same routes. I don't know what the answer is, traffic lights for pedestrians? or break the city up and relocate chunks more spaced out?
 
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