I take it you can back up this "fact" with evidence?
Cat owners
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I take it you can back up this "fact" with evidence?
Sadly the indigenous natives who provided their accounts are all dead now. Read the article that I provided that you've quoted and read already. It tells you that in there...
You mean the indigenous natives who wouldn't possibly admit to over-hunting or deforestation?
I think you're putting a little too much faith into un-verified reports from over 100 years ago.
I'm sure the cats were probably a contributory factor, but lets face it, a "delicious ground-dwelling pigeon" which was "a source of food for the local people", and was having it's habitat destroyed probably wasn't going to last too long anyway.
Every single cat owner I've ever spoken to has lost at least one outdoor cat to an accident. Normally, this means being run over, but sometimes they just disappear and no one knows what happened.
There may be exceptions, but the cat owners I know all live in towns and cities where this not rare, but in fact common.
On the other hand, I've watched cars get run down by cats. It happens. I watched one young cat cross the road to say hello to me, get startled by a car, run back across the road and get run over.
Despite your assertion that cats are great survivors, they most certainly don't understand the true nature and danger posed by traffic.
Behavioural scientists have calculated that a cat's intelligence is something akin to a 2-3 year old. Would you disagree with this?
How helpless would you estimate a 2-3 year old left alone on a busy road would be? e: For fairness, imagine a teenager with the brain of a 2-3 year old.
What you aren't taking into account is that many drivers slow down or stop to avoid a cat sunbathing in the middle of a road. They intentionally avoid hitting them. As a rule, our preventative action avoids many more potential accidents.
Our estate is packed with cars, and cats. I told you that my neighbour has lost 2 cats in the space of a couple weeks to car strikes. Just this week I've personally had to stop or take evasive action so as to prevent myself running over one of the outdoor moggies on our estate.
What evidence are you going to bring to the table that contradicts behavioural science, and a wealth of empirical and statistical evidence, that all points to cats /not/ understanding the dangers of a human created environment?
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Perhaps even adapting to only living indoors...
Cats are great, I have a had numerous, always in pairs though. They are fine to be left for numerous hours whilst at work. Being in a pair lets them keep one another company.
Maybe I have just been lucky but you definitely get out what you put in. All my cats have been sociable. Not all lap cats mind you, but definitely prefer being around (in the same room as) someone. Let them out during the day with no problems (As long as someone is home), bring them in at night.
Just make sure you clean the litter tray daily if not straight after one does its business.
Might get the odd present from time to time in the form of a dead mouse or pigeon (chasing the occasional live one round the house is fun..)
Get them chipped if you want, whack a collar on, get their jabs and they pretty much take care of themselves apart from the feeding.
Two cats I have at the moment are great fun (2 years old). Great to watch them stalk things in the garden and play fight with one another. Come bed time they just sleep on the bed with us, not a peep from them. They sit on he dinning room chairs when we have dinner which is weird. Just sit there, watching. Know not to jump onto the table though. Mine also eat the spiders/insects around the house...
Much win.
Maybe I have just been lucky but you definitely get out what you put in. All my cats have been sociable. Not all lap cats mind you, but definitely prefer being around (in the same room as) someone. Let them out during the day with no problems (As long as someone is home), bring them in at night.
Just make sure you clean the litter tray daily if not straight after one does its business.
Might get the odd present from time to time in the form of a dead mouse or pigeon (chasing the occasional live one round the house is fun..)
Get them chipped if you want, whack a collar on, get their jabs and they pretty much take care of themselves apart from the feeding.
Two cats I have at the moment are great fun (2 years old). Great to watch them stalk things in the garden and play fight with one another. Come bed time they just sleep on the bed with us, not a peep from them. They sit on he dinning room chairs when we have dinner which is weird. Just sit there, watching. Know not to jump onto the table though. Mine also eat the spiders/insects around the house...
Much win.
do this anyway. ive lost count of the posts on FB from cat protection etc about lost cats that got out a window but aren't chipped.
Soldato
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Out of how many owned by them? Out of the 10 cats I have owned, only 2 have been killed on the roads, both of which were kittens. The rest have died of cancer or other medical complications. Statistics indicate that 1 in 4 of the 7.1 million outdoor cats in the UK will die on roads. That still means that 75% of them will not. Also, the chances of a road death reduce dramatically if a cat gets past 1 year old (majority of road deaths are kittens).
Part of the issues with cars are not that a cat is mentally unable to assess risks, but that biologically their eyesight is flawed, particularly at night and the headlights of cars confuse their brains. Similar to how pigeons struggle with cars because their eyesight runs at a far higher frames per second than human eyes.
I disagree. I think whilst it is true some cats are less smart than others, most cats identify relatively quickly that cars are to be avoided. Otherwise that 1 in 4 statistic would be more like 3 in 4, would you agree? (the statistics certainly appear to - see below)
Show me a 3 year old that can do what a cat can do. You can't. The point being that it is a somewhat hollow comparison. They are a different species and an animal does not have to have an IQ of 150 to know what danger is and respond accordingly. Indeed, in terms of cars the very fact so many cats do get run over is indicative of the fact that they do identify cars as a risk and bolt. The issue being that is a fight or flight decision and not always based on carefully assessing their environmnet. For the record, human beings are very similar in this regard and the fight or flight response is natural to many other species as well. Ask anyone involved in a that situation and they will be unable to accurately recall details of their surroundings or actually be able to tell you how they got from point A to point B. They will shrug and say they don't know, they just did.
I should also note that stress responses in indoor cats can be the basis of a lot of the bad behaviour indoor owners see. The chemicals in a cats body is telling it to be scared but it cannot see or interact with what is scaring it so it confuses the fight/flight/breed mechanics and causes erratic behaviour. Ergo, it isn't a natural way for the cat to experience those responses and so they become confused and more anxious because of it. In fact prolongued anxiety caused in this way can harm their health.
I agree, but that is part of being a driver. Whether it be a cat or a dog or a person you have to make allowances for others as long as it is safe to do so. Also, perhaps you are unaware that circa 45% of drivers speed on 30mph roads and this could be a far more telling contributive factor than "cats be dumb asses"
I personally think it is a mix of both. But it culd be argued that Darwins law helps to ensure the success of the strongest and most mentally able cats just as it would in nature. The only thing different are the type of risks. Again the fact that 75% of outdoor cats are not killed by cars would reinforce that view.
So said moggie lived to see another day. If you were speeding at said time of the incident, do you feel the outcome would have been different?
The evidence speaks for itself in that 75% of outdoor cats do not die from cars. Additionally a study has shown that whilst 'trauma' is the biggest killer of cats in a sample pool, it is only 12.2 % of the population. It also highlights how there is a spike in deaths of kittens up to age 1 but the actual median age of a cat is 14 with deaths from ages 2-10yrs falling in the sub 2% - 2.5% region, further dispelling the myth that outdoor cats only live till they are 5.
The highest death rates are cats who are >10 yeas old and a third of those deaths can be attributed to cancer.
Yes outdoor cats face risks, but they are cats being cats. My primary issue with the indoor cat owners that I know are that mainly their decision making process is a selfish one. They don't want their cat to get hurt, they dont want to risk their property being stolen, they dont want their 'investment' to be short lived due to car death, they want there cat to be safe and they want to feel better knowing their cat is indoors and not out. They want to dictate the terms of the relationship and they want what they feel is best. It is all about them, their insecurities and fears and nothing at all to do with the wants and needs of the cat. If we viewd the mindset and behaviour in terms of a human relationship it would be deemed profoundly unhealthy and controlling with a complete lack of mutual respect.
You saying i don't own my wife?!?!
Soldato
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Legally we own them, correct. However, a relationship between a human and an animal has to be one of respect, both for the needs and requirements of the animal and the nature of said animal. We then temper our approach to 'owning' that animal accordigly to find a mutual balance between what the animal needs and what we need.
I've had an indoor cat for about 6 years now, I'm out of the house from 7.30am Untill about 4pm for work and never have any problems.
Just give her fresh food and water each morning!
**Removed, please fully star out any swearing**
My little one is so gentle and affectionate. I can leave my plate of chicken breast on the side and she will not go near it, just sit there staring, she's so well behaved.
Now the colder weather is coming in she will start to do her winter thing where she lifts my bed quilt up while I'm sleeping and lays down next to me under the quilt to keep warm, too cute!!
Just give her fresh food and water each morning!
**Removed, please fully star out any swearing**
My little one is so gentle and affectionate. I can leave my plate of chicken breast on the side and she will not go near it, just sit there staring, she's so well behaved.
Now the colder weather is coming in she will start to do her winter thing where she lifts my bed quilt up while I'm sleeping and lays down next to me under the quilt to keep warm, too cute!!
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As I said in another thread (and somebody called my psychotic for it), I bought a cat so that I could enjoy having a cat. Mine is not a rescue, I wasn't saving her from a terrible life. I bought a pedigree cat because I wanted to own a cat. I chose the breed based on characteristics I wanted in a cat.
I did not buy a cat so that she could choose to go off and live with someone else, who she might prefer better than me. I do not give her the option to leave me.
I did not buy a cat so I could enjoy spending money on food, vets bills, and other things, only for her to prefer being outdoors and barely see her.
It is an unequal partnership. She has a fraction of the human intelligence I was born with, so the relationship can never be balanced or equal. Mutual respect? What a bizarre thing to say.
I choose how she lives her life. I take into account her needs as well as I can, within parameters that I decide. She is my pet. Her will is secondary to mine.
But one thing I can assure you of. I will not abandon her or give her away if I move house. I see people do this all the time. She will have my protection and company her whole life. She will not want for good food, playtime, or whatever indoor stimulation I can give her. She won't be neglected. She will live indoors, and that is my decision, not hers.
Even if your statistics are correct (I've read a lot of differing ones), 25% is not an insignificant number. An operation with a 25% chance of killing you is a very risky operation. Most people would decline such an operation if it wasn't essential.
I don't disagree with your post.
However more this 25% being banded around. Surely it's (at most) '25% of cats who die get run over?'
Not 'cats have a 25% chance of being run over.'
Life of a cat has very few dangers... Getting run over, old age, illness/disease, death by another animal, neglect (starvation, etc.). I can quite easily see 25% of cats who die get run over, but not cats having 25% chance of being hit by a car.
Your comparison seems to suggest the latter.
I have had numerous cats who have all been allowed out, none of them have had a issue with the traffic.
Soldato
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So if I decided I wanted to buy a Lion should I be suprised when it chews my head off? That is the basis of mutual respect for an animal. The same applies for, lets say, owning a collie dog and never taking it for a walk, or a horse and keeping it in the stables all of its life. Or a mouse and keeping it in a box in the shed, or a bird and keeping it in a cage.
You bought a cat for purely self centered reasons. That is your choice and I am sure your cat is as happy as it can be, given the circumstances.
Does not change the fact that your ownership is based on a selfish thought process and your relationship with your cat is all about you. Essentially you bought a cat to subdue it to your will and make it be there for you when you want it to be. Any concessions you give your cat are simply to maintain the peace and allow you to partake of your cats company on strictly your own terms.
My cats have never chosen to go and live somewhere else. They come home every night not through force, but because they want to. They come for cuddles not because I demand it but because they want to. For me, that is a far healthier and rewarding way to cohabit with a cat and in turn I get out of the relationship everything you want out of yours. I just get the added pleasure of seeing them enjoy the outdoors.
You seem to want your relationship with your cat to be all about you. I want my relationship with my cats to be one of mutual respect and I want them to come for fuss because they want to, not because the situation is forced based on my feelings of entitlement due to them being property I have paid for.
I doubt we will ever see eye to eye, and as I have previously mentioned as long as there is no cruelty - live and let live
Re the 25% it is that 1 in 4 outdoor cats die in road incidents. That is to say that 25% of outdoor cats die from cars and ergo 75% do not.
We have cats. Ended up with 2 as we knew they were going to be indoor cats and as far as we could tell having two made them happier and healthier. I actually agree that cats should be allowed outside and do think we are being cruel by not letting them out, but its just not safe to do so where we live. As others have said, just make sure they have plenty to do, and they'll be happy enough, they sleep all day when we're out, go mad for an hour or so when we're home then sleep for the rest of the time.
So if I decided I wanted to buy a Lion should I be suprised when it chews my head off? That is the basis of mutual respect for an animal. The same applies for, lets say, owning a collie dog and never taking it for a walk, or a horse and keeping it in the stables all of its life. Or a mouse and keeping it in a box in the shed, or a bird and keeping it in a cage.
You bought a cat for purely self centered reasons. That is your choice and I am sure your cat is as happy as it can be, given the circumstances.
Does not change the fact that your ownership is based on a selfish thought process and your relationship with your cat is all about you. Essentially you bought a cat to subdue it to your will and make it be there for you when you want it to be. Any concessions you give your cat are simply to maintain the peace and allow you to partake of your cats company on strictly your own terms.
My cats have never chosen to go and live somewhere else. They come home every night not through force, but because they want to. They come for cuddles not because I demand it but because they want to. For me, that is a far healthier and rewarding way to cohabit with a cat and in turn I get out of the relationship everything you want out of yours. I just get the added pleasure of seeing them enjoy the outdoors.
You seem to want your relationship with your cat to be all about you. I want my relationship with my cats to be one of mutual respect and I want them to come for fuss because they want to, not because the situation is forced based on my feelings of entitlement due to them being property I have paid for.
I doubt we will ever see eye to eye, and as I have previously mentioned as long as there is no cruelty - live and let live
Re the 25% it is that 1 in 4 outdoor cats die in road incidents. That is to say that 25% of outdoor cats die from cars and ergo 75% do not.
I'm sorry Buffet, I can't take you seriously when you talk like this. "Cohabit with a cat". Ye gods. I will say without doubt that you are guilty of anthropomorphising cats and attributing them with human feelings, desires, and needs.
I suspect most people who buy/bring home a cat don't stop to ask them if they want to leave their current owner/place of residence. You "force yourself" on them when you take them home
But that's OK, right? Or did you somehow gain your cat's permission to take them home?But whatever. If I'm crazy then at least I can take solace in the fact that you're just as crazy, in the other direction
I have never, ever heard anyone talk about "cohabiting with a cat" before. Or "mutual respect". You know that wild cats usurp their own parents and take their territory? Does any animal even have a concept of "respect"? Fear and trust, yes. Those are fairly primitive emotions we all share.