Cameron's housing plans

[TFU] Thegoon84 · 8 Oct 2015 at 14:09

Its just a shame they cant commit to say 20% of all new builds being social housing, all rent made can help fund the authorities to continue delivering public services! Why the right to buy is still going on in England is shocking.

dowie · 8 Oct 2015 at 14:17

People are always predicting a 'crash' and have been for a couple of decades - in fact we've had a 'crash' only a few years ago - it doesn't necessarily make homes suddenly more affordable to people who are far away from owning a home.

We might well see rates rise a bit next year, they're not 'artificially low' now, the BoE was previously expecting to raise them this year. While you might eventually see a rise of up to a few percent there isn't necessarily any reason to expect the historic norms to be future norms - inflation is better controlled these days. We might see a dip in prices a la 2007/2008 or a general stagnation but a significant large crash isn't likely to happen. It would take more than just a gradual rise in rates at least.

Basically some middle class people are going to have to face the reality that they might not be as well off as their parents.

estebanrey · 8 Oct 2015 at 14:19

a1ex2001 said:
So if there were no BTL landlords who would supply the huge amount of rental accommodation required in the UK? Not everyone can or wants/needs to purchase a property. Rents are high because there are too many tenants and not enough properties, house prices are high because there are too many buyers and not enough properties it is a simple case of supply and demand. look outside property hotspots and you will find reasonable prices and reasonable rents because supply and demand are much better balanced.

That's putting the cart before the horse, if there were no BTL landlords there would be less demand and therefore house prices would come down.

Uther · 8 Oct 2015 at 14:22

The whole situation is totally insane, and can only lead to huge problems in the end.
We looked at a few places with a view to buying, and what you can actually get for the price is pretty pathetic.
France is looking more and more appealing to us.
Buy a house to live in, not as a business venture.

dowie · 8 Oct 2015 at 14:26

[TFU] Thegoon84;28659611 said:
Its just a shame they cant commit to say 20% of all new builds being social housing, all rent made can help fund the authorities to continue delivering public services! Why the right to buy is still going on in England is shocking.

I don't see why they should, plenty of people don't want to live next to social housing it is a complete faff for the developers and it shouldn't be something they're obliged to provide - they're businesses not third sector housing associations.

Scrutinize · 8 Oct 2015 at 14:26

People keep referring back to the 80s or 90s etc.

Life is not the same: the employment market, industry, the UK economy, global markets, lifestyles, access to higher education, life expectancy, pensions, social constructs etc etc have all changed dramatically.

So why, given that pretty much everything else has seen a dramatic shift should the provision and ownership of housing not change.

I wonder how many people prioritise mobile phones, sky TV, cars, clothing, gadgets, PCs etc over saving for a house?

dowie · 8 Oct 2015 at 14:28

estebanrey said:
That's putting the cart before the horse, if there were no BTL landlords there would be less demand and therefore house prices would come down.

Regardless of house prices coming down you'd still have a demand for rental accommodation - someone moving to say London for a year or two on a grad scheme doesn't want to buy their own house, they tend to want to rent a place (or a room). There is a need for BTL landlords and there would still be that need even if prices were lower.

scorza · 8 Oct 2015 at 14:31

dowie said:
Regardless of house prices coming down you'd still have a demand for rental accommodation - someone moving to say London for a year or two on a grad scheme doesn't want to buy their own house, they tend to want to rent a place (or a room). There is a need for BTL landlords and there would still be that need even if prices were lower.

No, there's a need for landlords, not BTL landlords. There'd be less demand for rental accommodation if there weren't so many BTL landlords buying up all the property. FoxEye made an excellent post about this in a different thread, I don't believe you have forgotten in already.

estebanrey · 8 Oct 2015 at 14:34

dowie said:
Regardless of house prices coming down you'd still have a demand for rental accommodation - someone moving to say London for a year or two on a grad scheme doesn't want to buy their own house, they tend to want to rent a place (or a room). There is a need for BTL landlords and there would still be that need even if prices were lower.

I agree, I merely using "no BTL" as a hypothetical to show how it would affect house prices.

There will always be a need for rental properties, but that natural need is vastly lower than the number of people who have to rent currently.

Most people I know who are renting for example aren't doing it because they plan to move to another city in the near/mid future, they're doing it because they can't get a mortgage.

Things change I've changed · 8 Oct 2015 at 14:40

I agree that the popularity if BTL isn't helping the market but I know a few BTL landlords that are doing it purely to help their children in the future because it's so hard to get on the housing ladder, I think my mum is going to end up going the same way even though she herself doesn't agree with it but feels it's the only avenue atm to gain financial stability, but that in itself says a lot about the economy and society today that you feel you have to go to such extremes to feel stable.

dowie · 8 Oct 2015 at 14:52

scorza said:
No, there's a need for landlords, not BTL landlords. There'd be less demand for rental accommodation if there weren't so many BTL landlords buying up all the property. FoxEye made an excellent post about this in a different thread, I don't believe you have forgotten in already.

What 'other' landlords though? Housing association and council properties are not flexible or short term and require waiting lists and residency in a particular borough. The only alternative is the private sector with landlords of varying size - BTL has a role to play there.

scorza · 8 Oct 2015 at 14:57

dowie said:
What 'other' landlords though? Housing association and council properties are not flexible or short term and require waiting lists and residency in a particular borough. The only alternative is the private sector with landlords of varying size - BTL has a role to play there.

There were plenty of landlords before the BTL explosion and there still would be if BTL stopped tomorrow. Amazingly, if there were fewer BTLers then demand for rented properties would drop because more people would be able to own their own homes. I don't have anything against the concept of BTL, just too many people doing it.

dowie · 8 Oct 2015 at 14:59

scorza said:
There were plenty of landlords before the BTL explosion and there still would be if BTL stopped tomorrow. Amazingly, if there were fewer BTLers then demand for rented properties would drop because more people would be able to own their own homes. I don't have anything against the concept of BTL, just too many people doing it.

But those 'landlords' were also BTL landlords mostly?

Your previous statement was that there is no need for BTL landlords (there is), now you seem to be saying that there are too many BTL landlords - that is a different argument.

scorza · 8 Oct 2015 at 15:01

dowie said:
But those 'landlords' were also BTL landlords mostly?

Your previous statement was that there is no need for BTL landlords (there is), now you seem to be saying that there are too many BTL landlords - that is a different argument.

Now you're just being pedantic.

dowie · 8 Oct 2015 at 15:04

scorza said:
Now you're just being pedantic.

no, it was pretty fundamental - you first said there was no need for BTL landlords now it seems you mean there is no need for so many - tis quite a big difference and completely changes the argument

I can somewhat agree with the latter but the former is completely incorrect

Scrutinize · 8 Oct 2015 at 15:05

Loving the straw man debate today

scorza · 8 Oct 2015 at 15:33

dowie said:
no, it was pretty fundamental - you first said there was no need for BTL landlords now it seems you mean there is no need for so many - tis quite a big difference and completely changes the argument

I can somewhat agree with the latter but the former is completely incorrect

Alright, if you wish to continue down the tedious pedant route then I actually said there was a need for landlords, which was correct.

Scam · 8 Oct 2015 at 15:40

balky12 said:
That's a bit strong isn't it? Hardly the BTL'ers fault the other person isn't financially able to own their own home?

Actually it is. BTL's get tax breaks etc which make it cheaper for them to 'own' a property. They can also borrow against capital on other investments, which as a whole they're able to stump up more for a property and get lower mortgage rates. When this happens thousands of times across the country, the prices rise and in turn those FTBs who could afford, say, a £250k house now find that house is now worth £275k because the other houses have gone for that much.

balky12 said:
Also no one is actually forcing him to rent? Maybe his personal circumstances force him to rent but then that means the BTL'ers are providing him with a service he needs?

Ah yes. The whole 'providing a service argument'. Us tenants should be ever grateful for the 'service' :rolleyes:

At the end of the day this is totally wrong. If you move to an area to take a job and you find you can't afford to buy a house there, what other options do you have? Seriously?

Answer me this, if everything is so cushy in the housing market, why do over half of FTBs have to have help with a deposit (link won't work)? And why is the average age of a FTB over 37 years old? Are you seriously arguing that is normal? That we're hitting the point where FTBs can't even get mortgages, because they'll be retiring before they'd have a chance to pay it off? :confused:

You mad, bro.

[TFU] Thegoon84 · 8 Oct 2015 at 15:52

Tories plan

STAGE 1 – Purge on the benefit users – COMPLETE
STAGE 2 – Purge on the low paid: “Operation make the country think they’re scum and draining our society.” Make people say “they should better education themselves them”. ENGAGED
STAGE 3 – Purge on the middle class.

balky12 · 8 Oct 2015 at 15:53

Well that's the price to pay for accepting a job in an area you can't afford to live.

You would rather there be no landlords? So you can't take the job you really want because you can't afford to own a house there?

Or you want everything? Better paid job in a cheap area? If the area and jobs are that much more desirable demand for housing will still exist.. Pushing prices up.