Germaine Greer on Transexuality

PermaBanned · 25 Oct 2015 at 15:00

balky12 said:
What are you harping on about?

So if I walked into a female changing room no one would be affected? The fact that you are arguing that no one is affected apart from the transgender shows how ignorant you are of the whole process.

Then you go on and say I am nitpicking but then argue about the ownership of changing rooms being the establishment they are in. When I am quite clearly on about what designated sex can use what changing rooms.

Then you waffle on about people using specific circumstances and then you choose swimming pools. Who said swimming pools? I mentioned changing/ shower and toilet facilities. These places exist in more then just swimming centres... Schools. Offices. Gyms. Shopping centres. Airports. Pubs. Bars. Clubs.

Please think before you post next time.

Well if that's the tone you're going to take, you clearly haven't actually thought about how this situation would play out. Which of the following options do you think causes less issues and distress to everyone involved?

A) A female who looks exactly like a female and talks exactly like a female and acts exactly like a female uses female facilities.

B) A female who looks exactly like a female and talks exactly like a female and acts exactly like a female uses male facilities.

dowie · 25 Oct 2015 at 15:06

you're trying to use specific scenarios to negate the argument that there can be an issue/conflict, there probably won't be much issue with someone who passes very easily as the opposite sex from using say a changing room with cubicles

But if we're constructing hypothetical scenarios then what about a teenage boy who has recently decided to identify as a trans woman who is also a lesbian and is demanding access to the girls changing room/communal showers after PE lessons at school? etc..

It is just silly, the point was that there is more to consider than simply a head in the sand view trans woman is definitely a woman therefore the feelings of other women are irrelevant.

balky12 · 25 Oct 2015 at 15:06

PermaBanned said:
Well if that's the tone you're going to take, you clearly haven't actually thought about how this situation would play out. Which of the following options do you think causes less issues and distress to everyone involved?

A) A female who looks exactly like a female and talks exactly like a female and acts exactly like a female uses female facilities.

B) A female who looks exactly like a female and talks exactly like a female and acts exactly like a female uses male facilities.

Jokingly I would say b. Men would love women in their changing rooms. But just in case humour is lost on you;

Obviously a.

Now this is where you come in and go 'herp derp transgender females then should use women's changing rooms'.

Except you confused one thing. A transgender female isn't a female...

balky12 · 25 Oct 2015 at 15:07

dowie said:
you're trying to use specific scenarios to negate the argument that there can be an issue/conflict

I mean what about a teenage boy who has decided to identify as a trans woman who is also a lesbian and is demanding access to the girls changing room/communal showers after PE lessons? etc..

It is just silly, the point was that there is more to consider than simply a head in the sand view trans woman is definitely a woman therefore the feelings of other women are irrelevant.

I got a feeling rational thinking is lost on him. It was highlighted when he mentioned people going through transgender doesn't affect anyone therefore no one should have a say in the matter.

PermaBanned · 25 Oct 2015 at 15:11

dowie said:
you're trying to use specific scenarios to negate the argument that there can be an issue/conflict, there probably won't be much issue with someone who passes very easily as the opposite sex from using say a changing room with cubicles

But if we're constructing hypothetical scenarios then what about a teenage boy who has recently decided to identify as a trans woman who is also a lesbian and is demanding access to the girls changing room/communal showers after PE lessons? etc..

It is just silly, the point was that there is more to consider than simply a head in the sand view trans woman is definitely a woman therefore the feelings of other women are irrelevant.

Wasn't there this whole thing in the 70s and 80s about homosexuals using the changing room of their own gender? People got over that quickly enough when they realised that gay people aren't sexual fiends looking to take advantage of them personally...

You acting as if being transgender is just something "people decide to do some day", and not a medically recognised and treated phenomenon that affects individuals throughout their entire lifetime.

phonemonkey · 25 Oct 2015 at 15:23

PermaBanned said:
Wasn't there this whole thing in the 70s and 80s about homosexuals using the changing room of their own gender? People got over that quickly enough when they realised that gay people aren't sexual fiends looking to take advantage of them personally...

You acting as if being transgender is just something "people decide to do some day", and not a medically recognised and treated phenomenon that affects individuals throughout their entire lifetime.

It wasn't long ago people would have made the same comments about black people too.

balky12 · 25 Oct 2015 at 15:25

PermaBanned said:
Wasn't there this whole thing in the 70s and 80s about homosexuals using the changing room of their own gender? People got over that quickly enough when they realised that gay people aren't sexual fiends looking to take advantage of them personally...

I'm not sure there was a big deal tbh. Also you pulled me up for using 'specific' arguments and your doing it here again.

Also the argument is nonsensical, again. If there was any 'thing' over homosexuals it was trying to stop them using a designated changing room which was for their sex. Ultimately trying to tell a male to not use the male changing room, or a female to stop using the female changing room. Which is silly.

The transgender argument is completely the opposite. Telling women to be fine with a transgender female (male) using their changing rooms.

Can you not see that?

PermaBanned · 25 Oct 2015 at 15:31

balky12 said:
I'm not sure there was a big deal tbh. Also you pulled me up for using 'specific' arguments and your doing it here again.

Also the argument is nonsensical, again. If there was any 'thing' over homosexuals it was trying to stop them using a designated changing room which was for their sex. Ultimately trying to tell a male to not use the male changing room, or a female to stop using the female changing room. Which is silly.

The transgender argument is completely the opposite. Telling women to be fine with a transgender female (male) using their changing rooms.

Can you not see that?

I think people who are uncomfortable with trans people existing in the same space as them are unfairly demonising a section of society and could greatly benefit from having a conversation with one to understand that they are real people who in no way want to take advantage of you, and how these sorts of attitudes that are prevalent in our society affect them.

Why do you think trans people somehow "are not" the gender they have transitioned to?

dowie · 25 Oct 2015 at 15:41

PermaBanned said:
Wasn't there this whole thing in the 70s and 80s about homosexuals using the changing room of their own gender? People got over that quickly enough when they realised that gay people aren't sexual fiends looking to take advantage of them personally...

irrelevant

You acting as if being transgender is just something "people decide to do some day", and not a medically recognised and treated phenomenon that affects individuals throughout their entire lifetime.

nope I'm highlighting that using specific hypotheticals to argue against a wider point is silly

PermaBanned · 25 Oct 2015 at 15:42

dowie said:
nope I'm highlighting that using specific hypotheticals to argue against a wider point is silly

I'm not the one who brought up the whole changing room topic...

dowie · 25 Oct 2015 at 15:45

PermaBanned said:
I think people who are uncomfortable with trans people existing in the same space as them are unfairly demonising a section of society and could greatly benefit from having a conversation with one to understand that they are real people who in no way want to take advantage of you, and how these sorts of attitudes that are prevalent in our society affect them.

you seem to fail to understand that some spaces for a particular sex only can be useful and you are seemingly only willing to take into account the feelings of trans people and not, for example, the feelings of women who might feel safer in a women only space

perhaps any trans women offended by not being allowed into one of those spaces could also benefit by have a conversation with women who are uncomfortable and understand that it isn't necessarily because they're anti trans

it works both ways and failing to even acknowledge that there are areas where there can easily be a conflict is just silly

dowie · 25 Oct 2015 at 15:46

PermaBanned said:
I'm not the one who brought up the whole changing room topic...

no, you're the one who decided to use a specific scenario to argue against a wider point re: trans women in women's only spaces

PermaBanned · 25 Oct 2015 at 15:55

dowie said:
no, you're the one who decided to use a specific scenario to argue against a wider point re: trans women in women's only spaces

I have no idea what this is referencing.

dowie said:
you seem to fail to understand that some spaces for a particular sex only can be useful and you are seemingly only willing to take into account the feelings of trans people and not, for example, the feelings of women who might feel safer in a women only space

perhaps any trans women offended by not being allowed into one of those spaces could also benefit by have a conversation with women who are uncomfortable and understand that it isn't necessarily because they're anti trans

it works both ways and failing to even acknowledge that there are areas where there can easily be a conflict is just silly

Right, there can easily be conflict. Trans people know that more than anyone. "Multiple studies indicate that over 50% of transgender people have experienced sexual violence at some point in their lives. This rate is nearly double (1 in 3 girls) or triple (1 in 6 boys) the commonly reported rates of sexual abuse." And the best way to avoid conflict is simply to act as any other member of the gender you're identifying with would be expected to act.

RDM · 25 Oct 2015 at 15:56

h4rm0ny said:
The only argument that can be made that does support such a situation is one which rejects entirely the idea that there should be separation between the sexes in any area (counselling groups, toilets, changing rooms, etc.). And as that argument ignores the reality that the overwhelming majority of people do want separation to be available to them, that's a very dubious argument to make.

Having just recently returned from holiday in the Netherlands where the changing facilities were unisex it was actually really nice. It meant that we could get changed as a family.

balky12 · 25 Oct 2015 at 16:00

PermaBanned said:
I have no idea what this is referencing.

Right, there can easily be conflict. Trans people know that more than anyone. "Multiple studies indicate that over 50% of transgender people have experienced sexual violence at some point in their lives. This rate is nearly double (1 in 3 girls) or triple (1 in 6 boys) the commonly reported rates of sexual abuse." And the best way to avoid conflict is simply to act as any other member of the gender you're identifying with would be expected to act.

I know it's at a tangent slightly.. But what? 1 in 3 girls have been a victim of sexual assault? Seems high. Well.. All of them stats seem high...

dowie · 25 Oct 2015 at 16:04

PermaBanned said:
I have no idea what this is referencing.

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=28726267&postcount=220

Right, there can easily be conflict. Trans people know that more than anyone. "Multiple studies indicate that over 50% of transgender people have experienced sexual violence at some point in their lives. This rate is nearly double (1 in 3 girls) or triple (1 in 6 boys) the commonly reported rates of sexual abuse." And the best way to avoid conflict is simply to act as any other member of the gender you're identifying with would be expected to act.

right, but there is still that inevitable conflict when ti comes to women only spaces which you seem to want to ignore or dismiss as something that women should have a chat with trans people about etc..

PermaBanned · 25 Oct 2015 at 16:09

balky12 said:
I know it's at a tangent slightly.. But what? 1 in 3 girls have been a victim of sexual assault? Seems high. Well.. All of them stats seem high...

Yeah, it's a huge problem. Not helped by the fact that only around 15% of sexual assault cases are ever reported to the police.

RDM · 25 Oct 2015 at 16:14

dowie said:
right, but there is still that inevitable conflict when ti comes to women only spaces which you seem to want to ignore or dismiss as something that women should have a chat with trans people about etc..

How much conflict will there really be? Wouldn't the majority of Trans women want to hide the fact that they have changed their sexuality and, as far as most of the women in the changing room etc, will present just like a woman?

balky12 · 25 Oct 2015 at 16:17

PermaBanned said:
Yeah, it's a huge problem. Not helped by the fact that only around 15% of sexual assault cases are ever reported to the police.

No I mentioned it from a point that the 1 in 3 girls have been sexually assaulted just can't be true (we talking UK?). Let alone bringing in the 'only 15% get reported'. That would mean almost all girls (if not all) have been sexually assaulted.

Common sense should tell you otherwise.

dowie · 25 Oct 2015 at 16:21

RDM said:
How much conflict will there really be? Wouldn't the majority of Trans women want to hide the fact that they have changed their sexuality and, as far as most of the women in the changing room etc, will present just like a woman?

it depends, in a lot of situations none at all - cubicles etc..

in others - there are legitimate issues

the point is that that conflict can exist and it isn't as simple as trans women are women therefore everyone else needs to just deal with it, which is the attitude being presented by some posters on here