Autumn Budget 2015

I agree with this. OBR hasnt explained why in 4 months the expected tax revenue for next July has increased by billions. He has spent £19 billion of his £23 billion windfall. That's a massive gamble on £19 billion which might not ever exist.

Of course, if it doesn't then Osbourne can just blame the OBR for forecasting wrong.
Actually, the OBR have explained it. In quite some detail. In their 246 page report, which is available on their website.

But in essence, it's this :-

- any economic forecast is an inexact science
- you design a model, collect the most accurate data you can, and feed it into the model,
- you then constantly review and revise both the model and data collection methods to improve accuracy.

Over several years, a variety of changes have occurred. The ONS changed how they categorise housing association receipts, the OECD studies of the comparison of international forecasting showed most countries underestimated GDP growth, HMRC changed NIC contracting out rules, and so on.

So, given that all economies are so vastly complicated than any economic forecast is only a fairly crude tool, forecasters are constantly reviewing models to take into account changes to how data is collected (by third parties) and how well existing models used historic data to accurately predict future events which, with the passage of time, have become past events about which actual outcome data is now available for comparison with forecasts. Where actual outcomes suggest model outcomes are wrong, and wrong consistently, you look for the source of that problem, and address it, either by improving data collection, of the model analysis.

It's really a bit like weather forecasting. The more data you have, and the more accurately its collected, the better the analysis can be, mainly because it allows you to fine tune your models to correct mistakes, or inaccuracies, in previous models. As a result, both economic and weather forecasting are considerably better than they used to be, but both are still inexact sciences.

Given that we have difficulty predicting weather with any certainty more than a few days away, we have to understand what economic forecasting several years away really is, which is the best we can do of a very, very difficult task. But providing model changes are made based on an improving accuracy and breadth of data, and understanding of their impact, and are designed to improve the accuracy, plaudibility and transparency of the models, then sometimes, changes to existing models fed with recent data will result in a re-analysis of near future outcomes better than the previous model suggested.

And that's what happened here. Improvements in the model since the July forecasts changed the impact of some VAT classification changes and NIC Class 1 contracting out contributions, over forthcoming years but with the biggest impact in about 3 or 4 years time. Those are two of the biggest changes, and the OBR explain them in box 4.2 of the report I mentioned (page 105, if I remember correctly) with actual data in surrounding charts and tables, and the other changes explained in similar boxes, charts, tables and voluminous text throughout that (extremely dry) report.

For the cynics that think "how convenient for Osborne", well maybe. But while he's seen various drafts of this OBR report over several weeks, the actual final signed-off report wasn't concluded until November 20th, and handed to Osborne Nov 21st. So he had the final, confirmed forecasts for a total of 4 days when he have his statement and spending review.
 
The money he claims he has is based on anticipated tax returns over the next year based on Treasury assumptions. If things do not go that way he will face a another hole next year.

Another bribe for the middle class with 20% of housing prices. It does not address the problem of ordinary working people needing homes who will not be able to afford high mortgages or rents.
 
The money he claims he has is based on anticipated tax returns over the next year based on Treasury assumptions. If things do not go that way he will face a another hole next year.

Another bribe for the middle class with 20% of housing prices. It does not address the problem of ordinary working people needing homes who will not be able to afford high mortgages or rents.

Yeah I know that bit but more interested as to what has changed in 4 months with the economy that means that there will be £23 billion more tax paid next July? That seems like a massive increase and I didnt think the economy was doing that well that self employed would be paying that much more tax in their July tax payments????
 
Scrapping HS2 would've been nice... such a horrendous waste of money. Is a 20 minute saved in journey time from London to Birmingham worth £60 billion? Could do with some investment in public transport outside of London and Birmingham...

DC was hard pressed to find £2.8 to electrify the main line between Reading and Cardiff along with the Valleys, priorities are so wrong.

I disagree with the scrapping of HS2, but I agree with scrapping the governments implementation of HS2. It's just another example of the London-centric investment of this country; when the thing was being designed, the government flat out refused to entertain the notion that people might want to go from Paris/Europe to Birmingham/the North, which is why they neglected to join HS2 to HS1, and refused funding for the 500 or so metres of track that this would have taken.
 
Not going to read it but can anybody summarise why its gone up £23 billion in 4 months?
I just did, but if you can't be bothered to read even that, here's a shorter version.

"Forecasts", as done by the OBR, are extremely complicated mathematical models of what, within a given level of probability, the economy is going to do over several (5 in this case) years. And politicians base policy decisions on those forecasts.

So, you build a model and every few months, for five years, it estimates a given category of tax receipts at £x billion. Then the real data comes in and shows that every estimate you did for 5 years underestimated those receipts by 20%.

The only reasonable conclusion to be drawn is that your model was wrong. So, you try to work out where it was wrong, and fix it. Then, if you run the same sets of 5 years worth of data through the new model and your new predictions mirror what happened in real life, it's a good bet your new model is better.

That's what happened between July and November - a new version of the model, more accurate and consistent with previous actual data, predicted the extra £27bn, over 5 years.

If you like, they're using model 2.1, not 2.0. And the figures come out different and this time, very fortuitously for Osborne.

It's worth noting that it's not rax receipts that have gone up, though, but predicted tax receipts. It could yet be wrong.

But as the OBR forecast the Treasury use is the "central"model, there is equal probability that they have underestimated projected receipts and overestimated them. Those recepits could end up being £22bn instead of £27bn, or they could be £32bn instead of £27bn.

Forecasts, by their very nature, are inexact, and nearly always wrong, sometimes badly wrong, whether up or down.

The problem is, for all the faults and risks with these forecasts, governments have to base policy decisions on some prediction of future finances and, however poor these forecasts are, they are the best we can do.

All that's changed in 4 months is the forecast model, and the prediction it made for receipts over 5 years. Add up the predicted changes over the whole 5 years and it gives you the £27bn, most of it in years 3 and 4. All available data suggests the new model is better than the old one, and the predictions a little more reliable, but it's still an inexact science, to say the least.
 
Yeah I know that bit but more interested as to what has changed in 4 months with the economy that means that there will be £23 billion more tax paid next July? That seems like a massive increase and I didnt think the economy was doing that well that self employed would be paying that much more tax in their July tax payments????
Nothing has changed with the economy, and it's not predicting tax next July. That's a complete misunderstanding.

The economic model predicting receipts has changed since last July, and the predictions of tax receipts over 5 years have gone up by some £27bn.

It's not the economy that's changed since July, but the forecasting model because, previously, it consistently got certain predictions wrong, and underestimated the receipts.

EDIT - Think of it this way, if you like.

Based on previous data, the OBR has an Excel spreadsheet predicting what will happen over the next 5 years. They've noticed that over recent years, a predicted figure in that spreadsheet was consistently low.

So, they changed a formula in the speadsheet.

The £27bn is the total accumulated extra tax, over 5 years, when you compare the new spreadsheet's predictions to the old spreadsheet's predictions.
 
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Just throwing it out there...
With the increase to stamp duty on buy to let mortgage there is one thing I didn't understand...

Assume the exchange of contracts was on the 10th March and completion was on the 2nd April would the extra 3% be charged on the stamp duty?

Does it kick in before or after completion?
 
Just throwing it out there...
With the increase to stamp duty on buy to let mortgage there is one thing I didn't understand...

Assume the exchange of contracts was on the 10th March and completion was on the 2nd April would the extra 3% be charged on the stamp duty?

Does it kick in before or after completion?

completion
 
Listening to Osborne on the BBC this morning telling us all that he listened to everyone in regards to the tax credits debacle but failed to mention that of course that the Lords kicked in the b***s and that is why he had a major u turn. Plenty of people, organisations, even his own back benches warned him of the problems many many people would suffer when these tax credits stopped and he certainly was not listening then.

But he will still be able to shaft the lower paid when Universal Credit is phased in and tax credits are phased out.

 
But he will still be able to shaft the lower paid when Universal Credit is phased in and tax credits are phased out.

Yeah the Government should definitely continue to give man & dog endless handouts. Wages are going up quicker than inflation and minimum wage (so called living wage) coming in as well. If you are still struggling after that then maybe cancel the Sky or work a couple more hours a week.
 
Yeah the Government should definitely continue to give man & dog endless handouts. Wages are going up quicker than inflation and minimum wage (so called living wage) coming in as well. If you are still struggling after that then maybe cancel the Sky or work a couple more hours a week.

Average childcare costs are currently ~£11,000 a year for 1 child in full time nursery. And that's set to go up rapidly with the increase in minimum wage.
 
Yeah the Government should definitely continue to give man & dog endless handouts. Wages are going up quicker than inflation and minimum wage (so called living wage) coming in as well. If you are still struggling after that then maybe cancel the Sky or work a couple more hours a week.

You obviously didn't see Question Time say 2 - 4 weeks ago. Cannot remember the date. Some lady in her mid 20s who is working 3 jobs and trying as hard as she can and still struggling. She looked like somebody that was very educated.
 
I agree with this. OBR hasnt explained why in 4 months the expected tax revenue for next July has increased by billions. He has spent £19 billion of his £23 billion windfall. That's a massive gamble on £19 billion which might not ever exist.

Of course, if it doesn't then Osbourne can just blame the OBR for forecasting wrong.

He hasnt just spent all that money - both are over the next term
 
I haven't got a clue, you're the one who suggested staying at home with the kids over getting a job and sending them to nursery.

Well you're the one suggesting the rest of us should pay for others to sit at home; can you come up with a reason why we should?
 
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