Save the NHS!

[davisdavid]

Have you read the new contract? The 13.5% rise in basic pay is to offset the reduced period covered by unsociable hours pay. For many junior doctors, this is a pay cut, not a pay raise.

Basic pay for a qualifying doctor is £23k a year. Despite requiring an excellent academic record and seven years of training, that's about the same as a junior police officer.

Military pay has already taken a big hit in the past month coming into effect in April with 2 months notice, many won't be affected immediately but pensions and future earnings have been smacked. Still waiting to see a strike or mutiny.

If it was all about money, junior doctors would be championing privatisation...............

If it wasn't all about money they wouldn't be going on strike and refusing everything they've been offered.

Well, the news just said both sides agree that Saturday pay was the deal breaker....

Exactly, they won't accept Saturday as a working day like most real people do. Everyone hates working Saturday but **** happens. Also Jeremy Hunt was on 5 Live Drive and specifically said that many of the senior officials within the NHS advised him to take immediate and decisive action. Now it can be interpreted that they are calling a double bluff OR they want this ended as soon as possible and likely agree with the new pay structure.

Lots of salary paid people do overtime for no extra pay, and equally lots of people support a family on less than £22k...

Seems a lot of people can't comprehend this.


The BMA wants all day Saturday for everyone to be paid at 50% above the basic rate - how is that not about money??

Seems to me that the junior doctors are manipulating the story with the 'we want it to be safe' but it won't be safe unless you pay us loads of money cos that will stop us being tired.

 

[Minstadave]

It's interesting as this was wrapped up the government wanting a 7 day service on a cost neutral basis.

The BMA tabled a new contract this week that allowed them to do this. What it didn't do was recognise Saturdays as being a normal weekday. So Saturdays still got paid a premium over weekday hours. It was a crap contract for doctors, but it gave the government what they wanted. What did they government do? Reject it and try and impose their contract that has Saturday as plain time.

So the real issue is simple - the Government want Saturdays to be recognised as plain time at all costs, they don't give a hoot about 7 day elective services even when it was offered to them on a plate.

Why is Saturdays as plain time so important? It will allow an NHS wide pay cut of all healthcare staff (nurses and other staff are all currently paid 30% more for Saturdays and 60% more for Sundays on agenda for change). The real saving isn't the tens of thousands of junior doctors that will get hit when pay protection runs out but the hundreds of thousands of NHS employees on agenda for change.

 

[stewski]

Seems to me the government are manipulating the story with 'we need changes in Jr Dr contracts to have a 7 day NHS', whilst failing to make any sensible provisions for changes beyond hammering Junior Doctors (Who have gone on strike how often in the past?) conditions and pay.

 

[tamzzy]

Military pay has already taken a big hit in the past month coming into effect in April with 2 months notice, many won't be affected immediately but pensions and future earnings have been smacked. Still waiting to see a strike or mutiny.



If it wasn't all about money they wouldn't be going on strike and refusing everything they've been offered.



Exactly, they won't accept Saturday as a working day like most real people do. Everyone hates working Saturday but **** happens. Also Jeremy Hunt was on 5 Live Drive and specifically said that many of the senior officials within the NHS advised him to take immediate and decisive action. Now it can be interpreted that they are calling a double bluff OR they want this ended as soon as possible and likely agree with the new pay structure.



Seems a lot of people can't comprehend this.


The BMA wants all day Saturday for everyone to be paid at 50% above the basic rate - how is that not about money??

Seems to me that the junior doctors are manipulating the story with the 'we want it to be safe' but it won't be safe unless you pay us loads of money cos that will stop us being tired.

you do realise that the contract is "cost neutral" right, so any premium on saturday would have a corresponding decrease in basic salary. and being "cost neutral" there isn't going to be much of a pay rise (if at all).

and re: BMA accepting the offer, even if BMA did. most of the juniors would have rejected it when it would be open to balloting.

and as minstadave so succinctly put it:

So the real issue is simple - the Government want Saturdays to be recognised as plain time at all costs, they don't give a hoot about 7 day elective services even when it was offered to them on a plate.

Why is Saturdays as plain time so important? It will allow an NHS wide pay cut of all healthcare staff (nurses and other staff are all currently paid 30% more for Saturdays and 60% more for Sundays on agenda for change). The real saving isn't the tens of thousands of junior doctors that will get hit when pay protection runs out but the hundreds of thousands of NHS employees on agenda for change.

 

[Minstadave]

If it wasn't all about money they wouldn't be going on strike and refusing everything they've been offered.

Your first point about pay: What exactly do you think has been offered to us? Best case scenario is you work more weekends for the same pay as the old contract until pay protection runs out in 3 years time. Then you're in trouble.

This is about pay and respecting weekends as family time. We're in a strange position of doing a life and death professional job but also working as shift workers for a monopoly employer. People don't do medicine for the money, if they wanted money they're bright enough to go find something better to do.

When I signed up for medicine the general feel was - the hours are pretty bad, the pay is ok, the pension is good and the job is fun. Now the pension has gone, the hours are the same but more antisocial, the pay will be falling and the staff are demoralised.

Pay is important, it is how you are valued, it recognises the work you do and it's how you pay your mortgage. More importantly it's how you get and keep good staff. It's how you have enough people in your hospitals to do the job. You can't say "it's all about pay" without considering pay is what keeps your rota's filled.

Exactly, they won't accept Saturday as a working day like most real people do. Everyone hates working Saturday but **** happens. Also Jeremy Hunt was on 5 Live Drive and specifically said that many of the senior officials within the NHS advised him to take immediate and decisive action. Now it can be interpreted that they are calling a double bluff OR they want this ended as soon as possible and likely agree with the new pay structure.

The other point is antisocial hours. I work 1 in 3 weekends and 2 weeks of nights in 10. That needs to be recognised in what I earn. Want to a nursery at the weekend? Good luck. Kids in school on a Saturday - nope. Working more Saturdays means less time with your family and inconvenience and cost of finding childcare. Calling a Saturday a weekday is a pure fantasy.

The BMA wants all day Saturday for everyone to be paid at 50% above the basic rate - how is that not about money??

This isn't how doctors are paid. We're not paid by the hour. We're paid a banding on top of our basic salary to reflect the proportion of hours that are nights weekends. For some that's 50% on top of basic, for some it's less and for many it's none at all. The importance of the banding system is recognising we do crap shifts and will always do crap shifts. An alternative pay system needs to also do this.

 

[Minstadave]

Seems to me the government are manipulating the story with 'we need changes in Jr Dr contracts to have a 7 day NHS', whilst failing to make any sensible provisions for changes beyond hammering Junior Doctors (Who have gone on strike how often in the past?) conditions and pay.

It's not even really about junior doctors sadly. Our pay bill is small compared to the nurses/HCAs etc. They've taken us on first to try and set a precedence. JDs are the toughest group to crack as we can and will strike. So if they beat us then everyone else will fall in line.

 

[Caged]

Hopefully the rest of the medical staff are supporting the juniors 100%

 

[Caged]

Are we holding up £23k for someone who has trained for five years as some sort of beacon of success?

 

[Minstadave]

5-6 years of medschool. Roughly 60-80 thousand in debt. Shift work for the rest of your life. People die if you **** up and you can be criminally prosecuted for your mistakes. You pay for your own hangman (GMC fees), your own liability insurance, your own exams, your own courses. It's a gravy train.

£23k is an insult.

 

[tamzzy]

Hopefully the rest of the medical staff are supporting the juniors 100%

most are, some are not, they're usually older, and cranky, and need to get some

 

[marl]

5-6 years of medschool. Roughly 60-80 thousand in debt. Shift work for the rest of your life. People die if you **** up and you can be criminally prosecuted for your mistakes. You pay for your own hangman (GMC fees), your own liability insurance, your own exams, your own courses. It's a gravy train.

£23k is an insult.

+1 I blame the govt. I worked in a Hospital many moons ago and have a HUGE amount of respect for junior Dr's!!!

 

[ColdAsIce]

5-6 years of medschool. Roughly 60-80 thousand in debt. Shift work for the rest of your life. People die if you **** up and you can be criminally prosecuted for your mistakes. You pay for your own hangman (GMC fees), your own liability insurance, your own exams, your own courses. It's a gravy train.

£23k is an insult.

Agreed

 

[marshalex]

5-6 years of medschool. Roughly 60-80 thousand in debt. Shift work for the rest of your life. People die if you **** up and you can be criminally prosecuted for your mistakes. You pay for your own hangman (GMC fees), your own liability insurance, your own exams, your own courses. It's a gravy train.

£23k is an insult.

It is when you consider how much other public sector jobs pay (tube drivers, middle managers etc.)
Frankly this whole debacle has highlighted how severely understaffed the whole health service is and it's amazing how doctors are able to provide the service they do considering the number of hours worked. If we were talking about a bus/plane/tube driver working the same level of hours as a doctor there would be outrage and questions about how it can be safe, yet those making life or death decisions can survive on a few hours sleep and it's all fine.
Perhaps if these savings on salary were used to fund more doctors so they didn't have to work the hours under the sun then perhaps there would be more acceptance for it but the fact is they won't.

 

[Caged]

And I know there are no life and death parts of the job, but eg. lawyers don't necessarily get paid amazingly well, but usually have to have had good academic results/have four or five years of pre-work training/etc. The minimum salary used to be £16 650 outside London and £18 590 in London... but the SRA got rid of that and I think it can be minimum wage now (I'm talking about the two year training contract for solicitors, which is after the law degree/other degree + conversion and the the LPC... so four or five years). I'm not sure what the actual average is (a quick Google just brings up a focus on the big swinging **** places where there's big money. And obviously their debt will be similar, for the five year/five year people (and half of solicitors are non-law grads, so will have had to do five years).

So what though? I've tried to make the point previously in the thread, but we as a bunch of citizens shouldn't be content with "well they aren't the worst off so **** em".

There seems to be a growing number of people who upon finding out that a colleague of theirs earned more for doing what they perceived to be the same job, would rather that colleague had a pay cut than a pay increase for themselves. This race to the bottom is just a distraction from wider issues.

 

[Minstadave]

Well, isn't going to be more like £25.5k if this contract happens .

No. For the few that do no out of hours work then you'll get this small rise in your basic pay.

The truth is 23k isn't the starting salary for most FY1s as they will get between 20-50% extra with their banding (50% is now rare before you get excited - a few years back 100% was common) for their antisocial hours. These will all get a pay cut (new FY1s don't get pay protection).

 

[Buddy]

Well, isn't going to be more like £25.5k if this contract happens .

It's not amazing, but it goes up quite quickly. And I know there are no life and death parts of the job, but eg. lawyers don't necessarily get paid amazingly well, but usually have to have had good academic results/have four or five years of pre-work training/etc. The minimum salary used to be £16 650 outside London and £18 590 in London... but the SRA got rid of that and I think it can be minimum wage now (I'm talking about the two year training contract for solicitors, which is after the law degree/other degree + conversion and the the LPC... so four or five years). I'm not sure what the actual average is (a quick Google just brings up a focus on the big swinging **** places where there's big money. And obviously their debt will be similar, for the five year/five year people (and half of solicitors are non-law grads, so will have had to do five years).

Is that really accurate?

Taken from http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ate-professions-nhs-jeremy-hunt-a6863101.html

 

[tamzzy]

It's not amazing, but it goes up quite quickly. And I know there are no life and death parts of the job, but eg. lawyers don't necessarily get paid amazingly well, but usually have to have had good academic results/have four or five years of pre-work training/etc. The minimum salary used to be £16 650 outside London and £18 590 in London... but the SRA got rid of that and I think it can be minimum wage now (I'm talking about the two year training contract for solicitors, which is after the law degree/other degree + conversion and the the LPC... so four or five years). I'm not sure what the actual average is (a quick Google just brings up a focus on the big swinging **** places where there's big money. And obviously their debt will be similar, for the five year/five year people (and half of solicitors are non-law grads, so will have had to do five years).

at most training grades, doctors earn less than their equivalent professions.

 

[tamzzy]

this is the consultant pay comparison, again earning much less than comparative professions (ie average medical consultant pay is just only above the minimum for the other professions

 

[Christmas themed thank]

I don't know who to believe anymore

 

[inferno]

I have sympathy for the doctors with regard to salary, but as a pilot, I get zero bank holidays and weekends are non existent and I work random night and day shifts, of course this is obvious with the job of being a pilot, but in this modern world people need a 24/7 service and if you are able to negotiate extra pay for anti social hours or working on weekends great for you, but you shouldn't take it as a given or a right. If I got paid extra for working nights and weekends and it got removed would I be angry, definitely, maybe I'd take industrial action, would it be successful, who knows....