Poll: Doctors strike tomorrow, do you support it?

[Cyanide]

Nope.

Saying itstabout patient safety whilst at the same time refusing to treat patients and now withdrawing emergency cover stinks of hypocrisy.

Just admit it's over pay. I still wouldn't support it then but you'd gain some respect for being honest at least.

 

[UTmaniac]

Yes, partly because they still have terms and conditions worth fighting for that have been eroded in a lot of other jobs, such as when they work unsociable hours and days. As a society, I think we are worsening family/social life and I do not accept that when we work these unsociable hours, we should get anything like the same basic pay rate.

 

[Minstadave]

Nope.

Saying itstabout patient safety whilst at the same time refusing to treat patients and now withdrawing emergency cover stinks of hypocrisy.

Just admit it's over pay. I still wouldn't support it then but you'd gain some respect for being honest at least.

It's about pay and working conditions.

Pay and working conditions of doctors effect patients. If you don't pay enough you won't have enough doctors, if you remove safeguards on hours you'll have tired doctors.

I personally am happy to argue the case on the working conditions basis but there is a link to patient safety.

 

[Danthus]

The contract amounts to nothing more than spreading the junior doctor resource even thinner than it is now, the re is no provision for any support services such as nursing, radiology or pathology to be increased in line with the new contract.

It is a cost cutting exercise by the government dressed up as better care for the patients.

Minstadave will correct me if I am wrong.

 

[wordy]

There needs to be a better middle ground for dealing with stuff like this.

Agreed.

of all the areas they can make cuts I think stiffing junior doctors is a really bad one... in the grand scheme of things it is a drop in the ocean

They'd be better off increasing funding to HMRC (and IMO perhaps considering paying higher than normal salaries to poach tax specialists from the private sector) and cracking down more on evasion plus investigating and looking at closing down avoidance schemes that take the mickey. They could also start bullying some tax havens... plenty of which are UK territories of some form or another!

Agreed, +1,000!

Doctors are stuck (I am one) as the Government have shown they'll just pay lip service to negotiations and impose their own agenda, without striking you're limited to leaving the UK or leaving medicine.

Communication has been a problem throughout this whole process, most Drs are busy working and not very PR savvy so it's been a mess.

What the strike is about is:

1. Imposition of a contract under the premise of 7 day working, something that is not defined, costed or practical - JDs already work 7 days
2. An across the board pay cut, hidden by "pay protection" and sold by the government as a "basic pay rise"
3. Saturday day time and evenings being considered a normal weekday
4. More of weekday evenings being considered normal hours
5. A self confessed sexist contract that penalises part time workers
6. A destruction of the safeguards against unpaid extra work
7. Destruction of Locum agencies and loss of free market for Locum work
8. Drs are obliged to offer their time to their own hospital at a fixed rate if they want to do extra work
9. Significant increase in pension contributions
10. Laughable non-resident on call rates

Beyond all that is my main worry in that this contract will destroy recruitment, a lot of Locum staff who most hospitals are utterly reliant on will move on and permanent staff will move too.

We are already seeing half filled rotas just from the agency fee cap, which is due to move to lower pay shortly. I'm not sure the NHS will survive the next winter honestly.

I support those reasons for striking, I particularly agree with the bit I've Highlighted. I think it's becoming more & more obvious this isn't just about Junior Doctors, it's an idealogical crusade by the Tories to degrade the NHS to such a point that they can sell it off piecemeal at a discounted price to companies that they will join as board members after ending their political careers.

while not great it's not really any different to what the rest of the countries workforce is having to go through, I have lost track of the amount of times I have had rates/hours/pension etc forcibly changed for the worse

Yes, partly because they still have terms and conditions worth fighting for that have been eroded in a lot of other jobs, such as when they work unsociable hours and days. As a society, I think we are worsening family/social life and I do not accept that when we work these unsociable hours, we should get anything like the same basic pay rate.

Agreed, another reason I support it, the government have been screwing over local authorities & teachers which I didn't support them doing, so I'm not about to support them in targeting another public service.

I'm completely behind anything that undermines the current government's credibility. If this results in mortality rates rising, while I would prefer that not happen, I'm pretty ok with it from a "greater good" point of view. It might make people wake the hell up and think about who they're voting for during the next general election, and even start demanding widespread reform in our political system.

While it shouldn't be the primary aim, undermining the Tories & shaking up the political system would be a good thing. But I disagree with the line of thought that patients should "take one for the team".

 

[Semple]

My opinion is heavily biased at the moment as I have a relative who's quite poorly in Hospital.

In theory that would be the best place for him, however today, it would seem apparent that it would be no different to being at home.

I do agree on the points the junior docs have made regarding the hours and fatigue that the extensive hours bring, but i think taking a strike stance of even refusing to help with emergency cases is taking it a step too far.

Just as a hypothetical question, what if that was a large accident today? motorway pileup, building collapse, terrorist attack? Would junior doctors still stand by refusing to help out?

I think it's a quite a huge gamble, and one that could potentially lose a lot of respect from the public - the audience that junior docs are trying to appeal with.

 

[Minstadave]

My opinion is heavily biased at the moment as I have a relative who's quite poorly in Hospital.

In theory that would be the best place for him, however today, it would seem apparent that it would be no different to being at home.

I do agree on the points the junior docs have made regarding the hours and fatigue that the extensive hours bring, but i think taking a strike stance of even refusing to help with emergency cases is taking it a step too far.

Just as a hypothetical question, what if that was a large accident today? motorway pileup, building collapse, terrorist attack? Would junior doctors still stand by refusing to help out?

I think it's a quite a huge gamble, and one that could potentially lose a lot of respect from the public - the audience that junior docs are trying to appeal with.

Your relative will be safe today, the entire consultant body and all the normal junior doctor weekend staff will still be in working as normal. Ward rounds will happen as normal, probably with more experienced staff than usual. It's the next strike later in April that is a full walk out.

There is provision that should a major event occur locally or nationally all the striking doctors will return to work.

It's a big gamble, it's essentially a game of brinkmanship now. The Tories have shown every intention of going toe to toe with the BMA - they're just trying to ignore the strikes in the hope it'll go away, Hunt is refusing to talk to anyone, doesn't show up to urgent questions and I believe has gone on holiday rather than face the music.

It would take very little for the Government to end all this, but it would take a substantial sacrifice from Doctors to roll over and let this contract go ahead. It's not a move that I think would benefit doctors or patients - particularly in the long term.

 

[Freefaller]

Can we have a poll?

Yes I fully support it.
No go back to work.

What are people thoughts on this? The reality is that doctors will not see a huge pay cut. It's probably only going to be 10 percent but we will end up working a lot more weekends and unsocial hours for less money.

To give people a idea doctors are paid 22.5k for the first year out of med school and around 28k from the second year. That goes up a couple of thousand each year.

On top of this we get extra banding which is normally 20 to 40 percent of your base pay. This is for working weekend, evenings and nights.

It's actually not a bad job. The hours can be long. Today I was supposed to finish at 5 but I'm only on my way home now. Normally if we finish at 5 we are out by 7 ish.

I'm going to work tomorrow. Not because I don't support the strike but because we are really needed there so a couple of us will go in on each strike day.

A bit more info here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-3447595

Is overtime paid? I know different places / regions offer different packages but is there are general rule about overtime?

 

[Minstadave]

Overtime as in beyond your contracted hours? Or nights and weekends?

 

[RaohNS]

My mum broke her back in December and should have seen a spinal surgeon. She is in constant agony and has only one position she is comfortable in (to the point she has pressure sores). She can't get up stairs and struggles to stand for more than a while. Her appointment was set but its been cancelled because of the strike. So now she has to wait for longer in pain etc.

I still support the strike and guess who else does. Its the woman above in pain because she has the sagacity to recognize the principle and the pressures these people are under.

The more this drags on the more I think the Tories are deliberately trying to wreck the NHS from the inside so that an army of foreign private health providers can come professing to be the saviour thus allowing creeping privatization to take a big jump with the Govt able to blame it all on the JDs.

 

[Minstadave]

My mum broke her back in December and should have seen a spinal surgeon. She is in constant agony and has only one position she is comfortable in (to the point she has pressure sores). She can't get up stairs and struggles to stand for more than a while. Her appointment was set but its been cancelled because of the strike. So now she has to wait for longer in pain etc.

I still support the strike and guess who else does. Its the woman above in pain because she has the sagacity to recognize the principle and the pressures these people are under.

The more this drags on the more I think the Tories are deliberately trying to wreck the NHS from the inside so that an army of foreign private health providers can come professing to be the saviour thus allowing creeping privatization to take a big jump with the Govt able to blame it all on the JDs.

That sounds rough mate. Thank her from me. The whole situation is a mess and the anger in the junior doctor body is starting to pile up.

 

[Dolph]

Can we have a poll?

Yes I fully support it.
No go back to work.

What are people thoughts on this? The reality is that doctors will not see a huge pay cut. It's probably only going to be 10 percent but we will end up working a lot more weekends and unsocial hours for less money.

To give people a idea doctors are paid 22.5k for the first year out of med school and around 28k from the second year. That goes up a couple of thousand each year.

On top of this we get extra banding which is normally 20 to 40 percent of your base pay. This is for working weekend, evenings and nights.

It's actually not a bad job. The hours can be long. Today I was supposed to finish at 5 but I'm only on my way home now. Normally if we finish at 5 we are out by 7 ish.

I'm going to work tomorrow. Not because I don't support the strike but because we are really needed there so a couple of us will go in on each strike day.

A bit more info here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-3447595

Just for clarity, the average take home of foundation year doctors is £36k, and for those in speciality training, it is over £50k, according to NHS Employers. Putting the numbers in makes for a cleaner argument.

 

[Freefaller]

Overtime as in beyond your contracted hours? Or nights and weekends?

Both.

 

[Dolph]

Your relative will be safe today, the entire consultant body and all the normal junior doctor weekend staff will still be in working as normal. Ward rounds will happen as normal, probably with more experienced staff than usual. It's the next strike later in April that is a full walk out.

There is provision that should a major event occur locally or nationally all the striking doctors will return to work.

It's a big gamble, it's essentially a game of brinkmanship now. The Tories have shown every intention of going toe to toe with the BMA - they're just trying to ignore the strikes in the hope it'll go away, Hunt is refusing to talk to anyone, doesn't show up to urgent questions and I believe has gone on holiday rather than face the music.

It would take very little for the Government to end all this, but it would take a substantial sacrifice from Doctors to roll over and let this contract go ahead. It's not a move that I think would benefit doctors or patients - particularly in the long term.

Thats not quite true though is it? They will receive emergency treatment, but not investigation, treatment changes that may improve their position and so on, basically the same as weekend service.

So as long as you don't have an emergency, you will get ignored today, regardless of whether there are longer term negative consequences from the treatment delay.

 

[Dolph]

It's about pay and working conditions.

Pay and working conditions of doctors effect patients. If you don't pay enough you won't have enough doctors, if you remove safeguards on hours you'll have tired doctors.

I personally am happy to argue the case on the working conditions basis but there is a link to patient safety.

Not this again. I thought we clarified your position in the other thread

https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=29314491&postcount=1773

As has been said about a million times Dolph, Doctors aren't asking for a penny more money. They just don't want a pay cut and a contract that is draconian and destructive. The contract negotiations have always been under a cost neutral premise. However the government wants us to take a paycut and has used 7 day working to try and push it through.

We don't want a pay cut.
We don't want Saturdays to be treated as a weekday.
We don't want to have to work extra shifts, if we choose to, for our trust at their fixed rate.
We don't want a contract that destroys recruitment, leaves rotas empty and may ruin what remains of the NHS.

We don't want an imposed contract.

I welcome the walk out, emergency care will happen, it won't be perfect. If the government want to provide decent emergency care they're welcome to back down from imposition and stop treating us like mugs.

Just stop the lying. This strike is not and never has been about patients.

 

[Minstadave]

Thats not quite true though is it? They will receive emergency treatment, but not investigation, treatment changes that may improve their position and so on, basically the same as weekend service.

So as long as you don't have an emergency, you will get ignored today, regardless of whether there are longer term negative consequences from the treatment delay.

No it won't be the same as weekend as far as I have seen talking to our management team. Trusts have drafted in extra senior cover so that the normal weekday reviews will occur of all inpatients, all investigations should still be available as all the auxiliary staff are present as per a normal weekday (radiographers/theatre staff etc).

There'll be some variation but no it's not weekend service.

 

[Freakbro]

Yea, it sort of undermines the strike argument if you are saying 'Don't worry, you will still be fully cared for, in fact you will probably get a better service with us not in today as more experienced people will be dealing with you'

 

[Minstadave]

Not this again. I thought we clarified your position in the other thread

https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=29314491&postcount=1773



Just stop the lying. This strike is not and never has been about patients.

This is getting boring Dolph. The strike is about pay and conditions as my above post. You need doctors to treat patients. Patients are effected by this contract, directly or indirectly. They're also effected by the strike.

I can't see how you can consider anything I've posted as being untrue.

 

[Freakbro]

Yes, partly because they still have terms and conditions worth fighting for that have been eroded in a lot of other jobs, such as when they work unsociable hours and days. As a society, I think we are worsening family/social life

If you are going into the medical profession/NHS, I think you realise that it specifically involves working unsocial hours

and I do not accept that when we work these unsociable hours, we should get anything like the same basic pay rate.

And Junior Doctors don't get anything like basic pay for doing it.

I'm self employed and work plenty of weekends for the same rate I work during the week.

 

[Dolph]

This is getting boring Dolph. The strike is about pay and conditions as my above post. You need doctors to treat patients. Patients are effected by this contract, directly or indirectly.

I can't see how you can consider anything I've posted as being untrue.

In every contract change dispute, most of the workforce threatens to leave, most don't. Doctors are not special unique ********** who somehow behave differently to everyone else.