Brexit thread - what happens next

Rilot · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:16

Roar87 said:
They didn't make promises, you're deliberately using language incorrectly to make your argument sound better. They could not make promises, they're not in Government!

Oh really.
Official leave campaign video:

Watch at 3:14

"Every week the UK pays £350 million to be part of the EU. That's £350 million that could build one new hospital every week. £350 million that could be spent supporting our doctors and nurses."

No a complete promise to spend £350 per week on the NHS but damn, it's a pretty strong hint that if you vote "leave" that is what you will get.

Caged · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:16

Roar87 said:
They didn't make promises, you're deliberately using language incorrectly to make your argument sound better. They could not make promises, they're not in Government!

Then surely the leave campaign shouldn't have tried to paint any picture at all of what would happen outside of the EU, as like you say, they weren't the people who would have been charged with implementing any changes.

The problem people have with the way the Leave campaign was run was that it it made quite a few bold 'predictions' about how things could change upon exiting from the EU, but didn't follow any of them up with "but please be aware that none of this might happen" unless pressed on it, when they hid behind the "that's up to the government" line.

Roar87 · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:17

Gilly said:
When you say incorrectly do you mean innit saying what you think I am or what you want me to say?

Do you honestly believe that putting '£350m a week' and the NHS badge on a bus isn't intentionally misleading?

So the Remain campaign did nothing misleading? There's nothing misleading or incorrect in every General Election or Local Election, there was nothing misleading in the Scottish referendum on both sides? Welcome to Politics. If you're smart you do the research yourself and you take what each side says with a pinch of salt and come to your own views. That's everyone's responsibility.

Gilly · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:18

Roar87 said:
So the Remain campaign did nothing misleading? There's nothing misleading or incorrect in every General Election or Local Election, there was nothing misleading in the Scottish referendum on both sides? Welcome to Politics. If you're smart you do the research yourself and you take what each side says with a pinch of salt and come to your own views. That's everyone's responsibility.

So it's ok for people to blatantly lie, because that's politics?

Mauller · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:19

Glaucus said:
hold your head as much as you want, it doenst make you right.

again democracy isn't based on lies.
and the biggest lies in recent history by a massive amount was the leave campaign, so no it's not democratic.

What about the massive amounts of fear mongering from the remain side? they had some of the worst such as Osborne's threats of more austerity and raising taxes all the way up to the prospect of war breaking out in Europe becasue of leaving the EU.

There was equal amounts going on in both camps but the media played up on the leave sides the most.

Glaucus · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:20

fear mongering, or most likely outcome off reality in most cases, like we are heading for a rescission .
and there's still likely to be an emergency budget.

again not outright provable lies.
you do realise that it has to be provable in a court of law for what I'm suggesting.

but you kind of miss the point either side that is caught lying should be facing arrest.

Roar87 · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:21

Gilly said:
So it's ok for people to blatantly lie, because that's politics?

That's how Politics works though, the £350m figure was torn to shreds in debates for weeks, if people still went out and voted based on that one single fact then they're as stupid as people who voted Remain because they think we'll go to war with our friends and allies if we're not part of a bloated political union.

uvarvu · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:23

Glaucus said:
but you kind of miss the point either side that is caught lying should be facing arrest.

I wish there were some sort of intervention on this.

Bonjour · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:23

A tax rise in the next budget would not be entirely surprising.

Caged · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:23

Roar87 said:
That's how Politics works though, the £350m figure was torn to shreds in debates for weeks, if people still went out and voted based on that one single fact then they're as stupid as people who voted Remain because they think we'll go to war with our friends and allies if we're not part of a bloated political union.

Lots of people are that stupid though.

If the claims made during this referendum were made by someone as part of their daily work life on a project then they'd be sacked. If they were printed in an advert then the ASA would ban the advert.

Politics shouldn't be exempt from this.

Mauller · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:24

Glaucus said:
fear mongering, or most likely outcome off reality in most cases, like we at eheading for a rescission .
and there's still likely to be an emergency budget.

again not outright provable lies.
you do realise that it has to be provable in a court of law for what I'm suggesting.

but you kind of miss the point either side that is caught lying should be facing arrest.

it is not a matter that they will need to adjust finances if things go very south which is understandable, just the matter that he used it as a direct threat and scare tactic.

Glaucus · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:25

Mauller said:
it is not a matter that they will need to adjust finances if things go very south which is understandable, just the matter that he used it as a direct threat and scare tactic.

how is it a direct scare tactic if its reality. it cant be both.
either its the most likely outcome and as such public should be told. or its a lie with zero chance of it happening.
god you have some odd thoughts.

Glaucus · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:26

Caged said:
Lots of people are that stupid though.

If the claims made during this referendum were made by someone as part of their daily work life on a project then they'd be sacked. If they were printed in an advert then the ASA would ban the advert.

Politics shouldn't be exempt from this.

exactly.

the best thing that can now come out of this mess is political reform, but thats extremely unlikely.

Roar87 · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:27

Caged said:
Lots of people are that stupid though.

If the claims made during this referendum were made by someone as part of their daily work life on a project then they'd be sacked. If they were printed in an advert then the ASA would ban the advert.

Politics shouldn't be exempt from this.

I'm more out raged that £9m was spent sending biased leaflets out. I'm more outraged that the Prime Minister said he could campaign for Leave if he didn't get a good deal from the EU, which he didn't, then he campaigned for Remain anyway. I'm more outraged at the BBC's consistent bias throughout the entire campaign. I'm more outraged that despite the electorate being in favour of leaving, the MPs don't reflect the views of their constituents.

Gilly · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:27

Roar87 said:
That's how Politics works though, the £350m figure was torn to shreds in debates for weeks, if people still went out and voted based on that one single fact then they're as stupid as people who voted Remain because they think we'll go to war with our friends and allies if we're not part of a bloated political union.

So you really are saying that this is how politics works, so that's ok?

Mauller said:
it is not a matter that they will need to adjust finances if things go very south which is understandable, just the matter that he used it as a direct threat and scare tactic.

It's not a threat or a scare tactic if it happens. It's just a picture of reality.

Reality sadly missing from the noises and scare tactics from leave.

Roar87 · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:29

Gilly said:
So you really are saying that this is how politics works, so that's ok?

All you've done is respond by retorting my answers at me with a question at the end. I'm still waiting for you to tell me how Leave could promise anything. If you weren't a moderator I'd assume you were trolling.

Mauller · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:30

Glaucus said:
how is it a direct scare tactic if its reality. it cant be both.
either its the most likely outcome and as such public should be told. or its a lie with zero chance of it happening.
god you have some odd thoughts.

becasue of how extreme and directed he made the budget. look around on various papers and they call it his 'punishment budget' that was seen to be passing through draconian amounts of tax increases and service cuts. Which would hit the people who are more likely to vote leave the most. With many people calling his budget 'economic vandalism' if it was to be passed.

Gilly · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:30

Roar87 said:
I'm more out raged that £9m was spent sending biased leaflets out. I'm more outraged that the Prime Minister said he could campaign for Leave if he didn't get a good deal from the EU, which he didn't, then he campaigned for Remain anyway. I'm more outraged at the BBC's consistent bias throughout the entire campaign. I'm more outraged that despite the electorate being in favour of leaving, the MPs don't reflect the views of their constituents.

The deal he got was a good deal, meaning he was doing what he said he would

Roar87 · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:32

Gilly said:
The deal he got was a good deal, meaning he was doing what he said he would

Hahahaha

Gilly · 2 Jul 2016 at 14:32

Roar87 said:
All you've done is respond by retorting my answers at me with a question at the end. I'm still waiting for you to tell me how Leave could promise anything. If you weren't a moderator I'd assume you were trolling.

So we ignore the fact that the leave campaign had people in government within it... the fact that they couldn't deliver on any of it and had no plans to do so didn't stop them saying they would. Why is it relevant to say that they can't deliver against their statements? That doesn't mean they didn't say them.