Hehe Ireland leave the EU, the country is so dependent on it now that without it they'd be destitute. Heck the UK can't even leave the EU - our politicians are too busy trying to find a way to justify a second referendum, stalling and waiting for the kerfuffle to die down.
Apple Tax issues in Ireland
- Thread starter fez
- Start date
Soldato
Seeing as how the Irish government think this is a **** thing the EU are doing, what's stopping Ireland from telling the EU to just go and **** themselves over this? What sort of punishment would the EU hand out for that?
Maybe what's stopping them is the fact that politicians are not forum warriors who often react to news in a manner similar to road rage episodes. For someone who hates the EU you seem to have little understanding of how it actually works.
Caporegime
Chickens coming home to roost for Ireland. This is what happens when your entire national strategy revolves around tax dodging - sooner or later the big boys get wise to what's going on and stamp on you. Ireland is just going to have to accept that it doesn't have full control of its own taxation system.
Edit: it's interesting though that the EU lets Luxembourg get away with much worse tax-dodging than Ireland though. Wonder why?
Edit: it's interesting though that the EU lets Luxembourg get away with much worse tax-dodging than Ireland though. Wonder why?
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Soldato
- Joined
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This makes absolutely no sense. How on Earth are you coming to your conclusion, based upon what? no one at any stage has suggested Ireland leaving the EU.
Soldato
Not even sure what Ireland leaving the EU would accomplish with regards to this case. The entire point of Apple and others being based in Ireland is because of their access to the single market.
Soldato
It actually sort of makes you wonder who is actually the government in some respects.
This is just one company too. Many more will be emulating this tax plan and as always its the rich who get richer and the poor get even poorer. The first should always be able to see the last and the last should always be able to see the first.
This is just one company too. Many more will be emulating this tax plan and as always its the rich who get richer and the poor get even poorer. The first should always be able to see the last and the last should always be able to see the first.
Soldato
What about the majority in the middle?
Soldato
It is the low tax and that it is in the single market. If they lose the low tax the companies will leave Ireland. Tariff free single market access is only saving on average 3-4% tariff costs (you don't lose single market access by leaving the EU). The tax can easily absorb those and still undercut the rest of the EU. Countries are ranked according to many factors to understand how business friendly they are. Typically Singapore and most countries topping this list are non-EU bar the UK which scores pretty high. Ireland will be very concerned that business are looking into their tax position there. This is already happening according to the news yesterday. So businesses will begin to change their operations which will harm Ireland and its business model. This puts Ireland in a difficult position where they lose business and stay in the EU or leave and keep business with tax incentives (their current business model). The EU interfering with tax in Ireland has been cited as the number 1 reason they would leave the EU. This is why the possibility of it happening has increased greatly.
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Soldato
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Both in the media and on the forum it feels like there is a lot of wilful misunderstanding or outright misrepresentation going on about this story.
No one to my knowledge has suggested that the EU has taken any action against ROI's corporation tax policy in general and their place as a low tax domicile is not being challenged. The case revolves Apple claiming to reside in a utopian tax haven and the ROI facilitating it purely to avoid even the low rate of tax due in the ROI.
Now whether the EU has the right to interfere in tax affairs of a "sovereign" nation is central to the legal argument and the desirability or legality of retrospective modification of tax law. But some of the fatuous arguments in the media, particularly from US lobbyists, about challenging ROI's desirable tax regime seem to be scaremongering and self serving. It would be nice if we could debate the substance of the issue her and in the media rather than fanciful asides.
No one to my knowledge has suggested that the EU has taken any action against ROI's corporation tax policy in general and their place as a low tax domicile is not being challenged. The case revolves Apple claiming to reside in a utopian tax haven and the ROI facilitating it purely to avoid even the low rate of tax due in the ROI.
Now whether the EU has the right to interfere in tax affairs of a "sovereign" nation is central to the legal argument and the desirability or legality of retrospective modification of tax law. But some of the fatuous arguments in the media, particularly from US lobbyists, about challenging ROI's desirable tax regime seem to be scaremongering and self serving. It would be nice if we could debate the substance of the issue her and in the media rather than fanciful asides.
Soldato
What middle? Its getting squeezed more and more into a polarised society. The haves and have nots.
I call people working and earning under a tenner an hour the working poor.
Wealth is getting more and more concentrated but because people believe they "deserve" it and have "earned" it we will always have a problem. I hold on here deeply unpopular views about action I would take, but greed will be reaching a crescendo.
Said it before and will say it again: Taking just 1% of wealth from the wealthiest 1% of individuals and businesses every single problem (eg funding need or shortfall plug) is gone.
Soldato
But the EU aren't interfering with tax in Ireland. They're investigating illegal state aid used to provide even better deals for large companies beyond the already low 12.5% corporation tax.
Soldato
Ah right, well I disagree with your definition.
I think the vast majority of the people in the UK are not poor, but if you have high expectations and "rights" then you could classify yourself as poor I guess
I love how Apple talks about creating jobs in Ireland as if they're doing so out of the goodness of their hearts.
They're based in Ireland because it is profitable to do so. Apple need a European HQ somewhere and Ireland is attractive for reasons that go far beyond the effective tax rate.
They're based in Ireland because it is profitable to do so. Apple need a European HQ somewhere and Ireland is attractive for reasons that go far beyond the effective tax rate.
Seems pretty reasonable to me. Earning the minimum wage (£7.20) doing 37 hours a week for 48 weeks a year earns one £12,787.20, which is 61% of the median income, about the level the government defines as relative poverty. (Note, I chose these numbers to get this result intentionally.)
Earning £10 an hour isn't much better, in many parts of the country you'd seriously struggle on this, especially as a single person or supporting a family. E.g. earning £18,750 p.a. is only £1,326 per month after tax - the average rent in the UK alone is over half that. Even that's more than workers in many low paid jobs get, e.g. cleaners, retail, kitchen assistants, hair dressers, launderers, waiters, and bar staff, according to wikipedia.
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Soldato
Actually that is just the first step. They are now going to reassign the taxes to the countries in the EU they occurred in which will increase them significantly. They have asked all EU countries to calculate what was incurred in their country. This change will certainly result in Apple and other organisations with this arrangement to move to another country.
Soldato
Ah right, well I disagree with your definition.
I think the vast majority of the people in the UK are not poor, but if you have high expectations and "rights" then you could classify yourself as poor I guess
No problem.
The majority of people in the UK are indeed not poor. But looking at the statistics of people facing hardship you would realise how precarious the situation is for some.
Oh and if you think this is about "expectations and rights" you are way off base.
many of the people doing those jobs though do them as a temporary thing while they're young and flat/house share or have room mates which drastically alters your equations.
Cook is such an insufferably arrogant liar it's beyond belief. His latest comment:
Doing the right thing? The right thing would be to pay your reasonable share of taxes, not funnel all your foreign profit through Ireland to avail yourself of their lower rates, regardless of whether they were even more preferential for Apple than others.
Apple's products may be excellent but the company itself is a horrid, greedy organisation. How much money is enough? How many hundreds of billions of dollars do you actually need? Yet you still insist on trying to screw the tax system out of every last cent rather than actually put anything back. Whilst the likes of Gates have dedicated their lives and fortunes to philanthropic ventures and trying to actually do some good with their money, I see no signs of the same from Apple. Jobs may have been a 'visionary' but he was also a selfish, arrogant, sociopath. Cook may not be quite as unhinged but he has a very nasty streak and I'm not sure whether he actually believes all his own propaganda sometimes.
Doing the right thing? The right thing would be to pay your reasonable share of taxes, not funnel all your foreign profit through Ireland to avail yourself of their lower rates, regardless of whether they were even more preferential for Apple than others.
Apple's products may be excellent but the company itself is a horrid, greedy organisation. How much money is enough? How many hundreds of billions of dollars do you actually need? Yet you still insist on trying to screw the tax system out of every last cent rather than actually put anything back. Whilst the likes of Gates have dedicated their lives and fortunes to philanthropic ventures and trying to actually do some good with their money, I see no signs of the same from Apple. Jobs may have been a 'visionary' but he was also a selfish, arrogant, sociopath. Cook may not be quite as unhinged but he has a very nasty streak and I'm not sure whether he actually believes all his own propaganda sometimes.