What are people's thoughts on the burkini ban in France?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Its the double standards arguments.

You have a strange definition of double standard, and fact, you have it backwards. Yes, I'd like to think we live by higher moral standards than the Saudis. But that's not double-standards, that implies hypocrisy, enjoying freedoms while denying it to others for some arbitrary reason.
 
FB_IMG_1472630369006_zpskiwgx8wf.jpg
 
A display of antagonistic policies doesn't really help.

I'm not talking about those who have already put there alligence with terrorists, but the everyday folk who get reinforcement of 'us vs them'. Everyone talks about 'oh those communities need to shop these extremists' but I really don't think policies like this one encourage mutual feelings of respect...

but i think for many the wearing of a different apparel does reinforce the us vs them idea.
 
I'm sure there must be quotes of prominent French politicians saying how bad it is for ME countries that force women to wear clothes a particular way and use morality police. Whether you agree with this policy or not, I fail to see how it helps the country as a whole. It serves to make men in power feel a little more in control and better about themselves (or for political gain like Sarkozy).
 
go to tesco without anything on then

And I'd be charged for indecency. Correct. However if Tesco are having a "naked shop" event I can let it all hang out. As I said a couple of pages back while public nudity is legal in the UK, where is regulated. I repeat, there are no laws in the UK that govern what a person can or cannot wear. That is as it should be.
 
Last edited:
For the sake of accuracy:

Europe did not have the same laws throughout. It wasn't even seen as one place. There was very frequent war between different European countries.

Britain wasn't one country either for almost all of the period of time you mention, so it too didn't have one set of laws.

I'll restrict my reply to England, since I don't know the history of law in other places. Property rights unsurprisingly varied over the ~12,000 year period you refer to and for almost all of that period of time England didn't exist either. Different tribes might well have had different laws, but it's impossible to know since they left no records of their laws. The earliest records are Roman and imply that British women had significant property rights. Roman law at that time gave women significant property rights.

Christianity, unsurprisingly, reduced women's rights in all sorts of ways including but not limited to property ownership, but we're rather short on evidence of law for the early medieval period. It wasn't a Dark Age as such, but it is "dark" in the sense of a scarcity of surviving writing.

The laws you're (somewhat inaccurately) referring to were Norman. Under Norman law, a marriage was a legal entity (rather like a modern company) andlegally the marriage itself controlled the property. Obviously, this didn't apply to unmarried people. Unmarried people, regardless of their sex, could own and control property and other assets in their own name. If you examine medieval records from after the Norman conquest, you will find many examples of women owning property (and land and businesses and everything else). Also, in law a husband couldn't dispose of property without the permission of his wife, since a married person couldn't control property or other assets.

There was very often a lot of anti-female sexism the way the law regarding marriages owning property was implemented, so the husband was often given priority in law even though the law as written didn't explicitly do so in the context of control of property (inheritance of property was a different matter - that was explicitly sexist). But, of course, that only applied to married people. The laws regarding marriage, however they were implemented, couldn't apply to people who were not married.

Also, prior legal agreements could over-ride the default (and often did). People who had money could (and often did) add clauses into a marriage contract to ensure their daughter(s) had an independent income.

The Married Women's Property Acts (there were 2, not 1, and they were passed in 1870 and 1882, not the 1860s) you refer to gave married women superior property rights to those married men had. The marriage controlled the husband's property and assets, but the wife controlled her own. This is the origin of the phrase "What's mine is mine and what's his is ours". That was what the law stated at that time.

Those are not really seperate things, particularly with a religion that so thoroughly permeates into a culture.

I would go slightly further and remove the state church too...because I think religion really should be a PRIVATE matter. No effect on law. No effect on education. No effect on society. Religion+power is far too dangerous a combination for it to be prudent to allow it to happen. Religion+power leads to conquest, especially for the Abrahamic religions since they are so strongly geared towards power over everything (i.e. conquest and rule) and particularly for Islam as that's currently the worst of the worst in that way.

Very good read. Great posts.
 
Why should they be banned?

Because you don't like it or because safety?

This attitude is why you have more extremist on both sides. The west represents freedom of religion and expression as long as it does not infringe in others freedom and safety.

I see no safety issue with this dress.

They look ridiculous, especially the ones which only show the eyes, it could be anyone under those things.

What's the point of even going to the beech wearing one of these? I don't get it.

I also think religion in general should be banned btw, but one step at a time. :D
 
They look ridiculous, especially the ones which only show the eyes, it could be anyone under those things.

What's the point of even going to the beech wearing one of these? I don't get it.

I also think religion in general should be banned btw, but one step at a time. :D

Maybe because she already has a dark skin complexion, so the outfit cover's where she doesn't want to catch the sun.

Save's on cream too :)
 
They look ridiculous, especially the ones which only show the eyes, it could be anyone under those things.

What's the point of even going to the beech wearing one of these? I don't get it.

I also think religion in general should be banned btw, but one step at a time. :D

If we banned everything that looked ridiculous, most people would not be let out!

Also, people don't go to the beach just to sunbath but because the scenery is nice and they like the sea air.

As for anyone could be under those things... LOL

Who are you expecting to catch when you unveil a burkini?

Most of them are not even veiled. I dont see it as any different from a wet-suit. Maybe we should ban lycra since some people find full lycra cyclists ridiculous (awaits the wrath from all the middleclass 30-40 year old hobbyist pro cyclists on OCuk).
 
The SA argument is to create a contrast between rights in the West (where minorities are afforded a lot of protections). The reality is that in Saudi (despite bans) women still have a chaperone. She wouldn't even be allowed alone on the beach and yet people kick up a fuss about Muslim women's rights. That I a clear double standard being applied and is stepping into hypocrisy.

What protections exist for minorities in Islamic countries? Very few indeed and they have to suck it up.

Nope, still doesn't make sense.

You still seem to be comparing two separate countries, which makes little sense in this debate. It still sounds to me like you are arguing that because the certain counties in the middle east have authoritarian, sexist policies France should to?

Another double standard: Allowing non muslim french women to wear whatever they want to the beach (including head coverings), but banning muslim women from wearing burkinis.
 
They look ridiculous, especially the ones which only show the eyes, it could be anyone under those things.

What's the point of even going to the beech wearing one of these? I don't get it.

I also think religion in general should be banned btw, but one step at a time. :D

Because someone may want to relax, and have fun on a beach and swim in the sea. The same reason most others go to the beach?:confused:

Some people go to the beach and wear a tiny pair* of bottoms (male or women), some go wearing swimming costume, many go in shorts and t-shirt, some in shirt and trousers, wetsuit, burkini... etch.

Unless of course you're one of those "extreme tanners", who only go to get as brown/red as possible. Then it makes more sense. :p

*Out of interest why do we call it a "pair" of trunks, or "pair of boxers/trousers etc? Last time I checked I only put one boxer(s) on in the morning.:p
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom