Brexit thread - what happens next

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dalehitchy1 said:
Don't forget the UK welcoming tax evading Apple with open arms. Just what this country needs.... More tax dodging companies.

It's amazing how the newspapers jumped on this news story and made it look negative what the EU was doing and something Britain can gain from. Comments on the daily mail were really anti EU and happy for apple to come here.

Yet in a none related EU article about tax dodging companies the exact same readers commented differently moaning about tax loopholes and how companies shouldn't get away with it... And that if they are in the UK they should pay their fair share.

This is why I don't understand leavers logic.... It's amazing how some people can get manipulated to hate something so much but can't link one news story to another and see some sort of conflict in their beliefs.
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Indeed, it's yet another steaming pile of hypocrisy. Essentially, Leavers have been so manipulated against the EU they will get into bed with almost anyone to achieve their objectives, be it right wing extremists, tax-dodging multinationals, quack economists, civil rights abolitionists, compulsive liars or the morally bankrupt. This Brexit at all costs mentality is what will really do the most damage to the country.
 
Cern said:
Indeed, it's yet another steaming pile of hypocrisy. Essentially, Leavers have been so manipulated against the EU they will get into bed with almost anyone to achieve their objectives, be it right wing extremists, tax-dodging multinationals, quack economists, civil rights abolitionists, compulsive liars or the morally bankrupt. This Brexit at all costs mentality is what will really do the most damage to the country.
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Some pretty hefty generalizations you've got there. I'm sure among the 33.5 million people that voted in this referendum (picking only one of "A" or "B") I could find a few left-leaning recovering sex offenders would voted remain, but I won't try and suggest what you're doing in your post to me and other leave voters (17 million+ of us) as the logic is frankly ridiculous.

If it makes you feel better to assume 17.4 million people were all manipulated, had no idea what they were voting for, all religiously read the Daily Fail or Express and are secretly hoping Trump wins then go for it, but you're completely missing the point. Two post referendum surveys have concluded the primary motivation of leave voters was that decisions affecting primarily the UK should be taken in the UK, not in Brussels. I know it might be hard to accept that because it's not racism, a love of tax-dodging MNCs, far-right extremist groups or any other vilification, but it was the main reason I voted leave along with many others. Your failure to understand this perhaps explains why you think millions of people have collectively been manipulated, a simple, but completely wrong, generalization.

As Professor of International History at the London School of Economics Alan Sked says below, the EU is basically about the creation of a single European country, and I and many other leave voters do not want to be a part of it.

Professor of International History at the London School of Economics said:
The Remain camp is quite aware of the essentially political nature of the EU, although it tries to obscure this with economic scare stories. Yet its basic argument is that to trade with Europe we have to be part of Europe. Just think about that for a moment. Nobody in their right minds says that to trade with China you have to be part of China. That would be very scary. Nobody says that to trade with Japan you have to be part of Japan. Nobody says that to trade with the USA you have to accept the US constitution or that you need to negotiate an opt-out from accepting the dollar as your single currency.

Yet to continue to trade with Europe, the Remain camp says that we must continue to accept an EU passport, EU policies, a European parliament, commission, supreme court, diplomatic service, flag and anthem and soon an EU army. Why? Because the whole point of EU membership is not trade or a single market, but political union as the EU’s official document I quoted pointed out. Otherwise, what is the point of all these institutions?

Gordon Brown in a typically bombastic article in the Guardian a few weeks ago tried to argue that the EU was simply about international cooperation. And there may be other simple-minded folk who actually believe this. Yet the same point has to be made about cooperation that has just been made about trade: you don’t normally have to share a passport, constitution, parliament, supreme court, civil service, diplomatic service, flag and anthem just to cooperate with other nations or states. Suppose we wanted to cooperate with North Korea in the interests of nuclear disarmament. Would Gordon Brown really expect to share a passport and legal system and all these other institutions and policies with Kim Jong Un in order to do so? I suspect not.

So being a member of the EU has nothing to do with trade or cooperation. We trade and cooperate happily with all parts of the world without requiring any political suicide pact. But that is what we get with the EU. The creation of a United States of Europe means the end of our national sovereignty.
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And for the record, I applaud any attempt to try and curtail illegal tax dodging by international MNCs, including much (but not all) of what the EU is doing. But should the EU have the ability to overrule a sovereign nation's wishes as it's doing here in the case of Ireland? In my opinion, no. Of course having more power than (and having the ability to overrule) nation states is where the EU is heading, and given its track record and trajectory, in 20 years it won't just be overruling national Governments on tax law, it will be in every policy area that matters. In other words, a Government for the whole of Europe. No thanks.
 
Mulder said:
Some pretty hefty generalizations you've got there. I'm sure among the 33.5 million people that voted in this referendum (picking only one of "A" or "B") I could find a few left-leaning recovering sex offenders would voted remain, but I won't try and suggest what you're doing in your post to me and other leave voters (17 million+ of us) as the logic is frankly ridiculous.

If it makes you feel better to assume 17.4 million people were all manipulated, had no idea what they were voting for, all religiously read the Daily Fail or Express and are secretly hoping Trump wins then go for it, but you're completely missing the point. Two post referendum surveys have concluded the primary motivation of leave voters was that decisions affecting primarily the UK should be taken in the UK, not in Brussels. I know it might be hard to accept that because it's not racism, a love of tax-dodging MNCs, far-right extremist groups or any other vilification, but it was the main reason I voted leave along with many others. Your failure to understand this perhaps explains why you think millions of people have collectively been manipulated, a simple, but completely wrong, generalization.

As Professor of International History at the London School of Economics Alan Sked says below, the EU is basically about the creation of a single European country, and I and many other leave voters do not want to be a part of it.



And for the record, I applaud any attempt to try and curtail illegal tax dodging by international MNCs, including much (but not all) of what the EU is doing. But should the EU have the ability to overrule a sovereign nation's wishes as it's doing here in the case of Ireland? In my opinion, no. Of course having more power than (and having the ability to overrule) nation states is where the EU is heading, and given its track record and trajectory, in 20 years it won't just be overruling national Governments on tax law, it will be in every policy area that matters. In other words, a Government for the whole of Europe. No thanks.
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Article is fatuous, possibly deliberately so.

Trading with the US / China is subject to potential restrictions / quotas / disguised restrictions, all of which the WTO is intended to curtail, with varying degrees of success.

Access to the single market is very different and comes with a huge amount of baggage. The EU essentially doesn't want countries to be able to trade completely freely, if they don't sign up to the EU rules on worker protection, freedom of establishment, state aid etc, since that would potentially put the other country in a position where it can outcompete the EU member by doing things the EU considers unacceptable. The point is that to access the single market on the EU's terms means giving up a significant portion of sovereignty - as that's the basis on which all of the members have acted. Of course the UK can and will continue to trade with the EU, but it will be from outside of the single market and therefore on a very different basis.
 
b0redj0rd said:

All this is going to be proved wrong. The UK economy will probably grow by a respectable 2% or thereabouts this year, a rate many €urozone countries look at enviously.

In truth, a lot depends on results due on Monday from the Services industry - although things are certainly looking better than predicted by many at this point in time, pre-BREXIT.
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We haven't left let, we are seeing the short term benefit from a trashed pound, and what remains to be seen is how effectively the Brexit is handled, that will determine if we go into a major recession or not.
 
Mulder said:
If it makes you feel better to assume 17.4 million people were all manipulated, had no idea what they were voting for, all religiously read the Daily Fail or Express and are secretly hoping Trump wins then go for it, but you're completely missing the point. Two post referendum surveys have concluded the primary motivation of leave voters was that decisions affecting primarily the UK should be taken in the UK, not in Brussels. I know it might be hard to accept that because it's not racism, a love of tax-dodging MNCs, far-right extremist groups or any other vilification, but it was the main reason I voted leave along with many others. Your failure to understand this perhaps explains why you think millions of people have collectively been manipulated, a simple, but completely wrong, generalization.
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I think you and others may be elevating the intelligence of the average UK voter far above their pay grade. I suspect if you asked most of them even a few rudimentary questions about EU policy they wouldn't have the first clue what you were talking about.

I doubt most even know what the EU do save for what they hear on TV or read about in papers such as the Sun or Daily Fail. Some voters were asked during the campaign if they knew who our prime minister and chancellor were - they didn't. These are the people who vote on the future of our country. :eek:
 
Billies Bangers said:
I doubt most even know what the EU do save for what they hear on TV or read about in papers such as the Sun or Daily Fail. Some voters were asked during the campaign if they knew who our prime minister and chancellor were - they didn't. These are the people who vote on the future of our country. :eek:
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I bet you think women shouldn't be able to vote either. :rolleyes:
 
Mulder said:
If it makes you feel better to assume 17.4 million people were all manipulated, had no idea what they were voting for, all religiously read the Daily Fail or Express and are secretly hoping Trump wins then go for it, but you're completely missing the point.
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It’s ok, it helps them cope with being on the wrong side of history. 15 years from now they’ll be lying about voting Remain out of embarrassment.
 
Skunkworks said:
It’s ok, it helps them cope with being on the wrong side of history. 15 years from now they’ll be lying about voting Remain out of embarrassment.
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More than one million people regret their vote to leave the European Union, an opinion poll carried out in the wake of the Brexit decision suggests.

Of the 17.4 million people who voted Leave, 1.1 million now say they wish they had not, if the results of a Survation poll are to be believed.

The poll found that people who used Brexit as a protest vote - or thought their vote "wouldn't matter" - are now having second thoughts.
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That "Bregret" was debunked soon after. Far less people regret it and I bet now there will be more people that support it that voted remain before. The doom stories haven't come true and the EU has just slammed on the throttle to the closer union. Remaining is not staying in the EU as it was at the time. Now and over the future the EU will be very different.
 
delta0 said:
That "Bregret" was debunked soon after. Far less people regret it and I bet now there will be more people that support it that voted remain before. The doom stories haven't come true and the EU has just slammed on the throttle to the closer union. Remaining is not staying in the EU as it was at the time. Now and over the future the EU will be very different.
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Is this some dream you had last night? Of course the doom stories haven't come true. You may not have noticed but nothing has happened yet, we are still in the same position now as we were pre-referendum and will be for at least the next two years. We are slightly better off due to the collapse of sterling post-brexit vote that is all.

Whatever you do, don't give up your day job. :rolleyes:

Let's have this conversation again in five years time and see how things are looking then.
 
5 years from now:

Just hang in there, Remainers, everything’s going to be terrible, just wait and see, any minute now!

10 years from now:

Any day now guys, don’t panic, the meltdown is coming, you’ll get to be right on the internet I promise!
 
Skunkworks said:
5 years from now:

Just hang in there, Remainers, everything’s going to be terrible, just wait and see, any minute now!

10 years from now:

Any day now guys, don’t panic, the meltdown is coming, you’ll get to be right on the internet I promise!
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5 years from now:

Just hang in there, Leavers, everything’s going to be fine, just wait and see, any minute now!

10 years from now:

Any day now guys, don’t panic, the shiny new dawn is coming, the reason it's not here yet is because of the terrible EU, it's all their fault.
 
Skunkworks said:
5 years from now:

Just hang in there, Remainers, everything’s going to be terrible, just wait and see, any minute now!

10 years from now:

Any day now guys, don’t panic, the meltdown is coming, you’ll get to be right on the internet I promise!
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Well given it's going to take at least that long to exit the EU and get trade agreements in place then get them up and running, I would say five years is a minimum.

It just shows how little thought and research the Brexiteers put into this. I liken Brexiteers to impulse buyers, i.e. buy in haste repent at leisure.

Rule of hole - when you're in one stop digging. :rolleyes:
 
I'm really tired of seeing bickering in this thread. For now people can take 5 and calm down.

When the thread is re-opened I ask that everyone continues their discussion without resorting to "lol remainers" or "lol leavers" type comments. It would be a shame to have to suspend people and/or permanently close this thread.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37257006

The UK will be a "global leader" in free trade following the Brexit vote, Theresa May has said, as she heads to China for the G20 summit.
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I guess that is what you have to hope.

Good luck convincing the US and EU to make no strings attached free trade deals though. TTIP has shown how much self interest is involved in both sides with lobbies from the many industries. It's all about leverage.

Also any hope of protectionism from certain industries in the UK will just have died.
 
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