Friend getting done for fly tipping - be warned!

Scam said:
And the fact the first conversation you have with the council about it is recorded is so utterly devious :(

But really, if she paid a builder to renovate her kitchen with a contract that included removing rubbish.. she has technically sold the rubbish to him ;)
Click to expand...

lol nice try.
 
I know a chap that had his birds stolen from the aviary in the back garden - a few months later some boxes were found with his address on the that had been fly-tipped. He just called them and explained the situation and there was no problem. This is a different situation but it could be explained as something that was stolen, sold or given away I guess that its a lesson not to put personal information in the bin/waste skip.

I have heard that you are still responsible even if someone else took it away, however, it would have to be a hard court to convict someone I would have thought. Councils are bullies and I would definately have my day in court if it was myself in this situation rather than let the council simply rubber stamp it.
 
scotty365 said:
I have heard that you are still responsible even if someone else took it away, however, it would have to be a hard court to convict someone I would have thought.
Click to expand...

WHy? As the law stands all they have to do is

1. Prove that its your waste - its got her name and address on it
2. Has she got proof the builder has a waste disposal licence or did she check him out with the free phone number - No, clearly she never even asked as didnt realise you legally had to
3. Has she got a Duty of Care waste disposl ticket when the waste was collected? - No

therefore all three of defences, she hasnt got one. All you could do in court is have a good solicitor who could argue mitigating circumstances to get the penalty reduced. The fact remains she is 100% guilty of breaking the law. Its just a question of whether it will be a few hundred pound penalty of 1000s. Remember its a magistrate she goes up in front off. He does not have the power to rule her not guilty if she has broken the law. The only leaway he has is her sentence.
 
Last edited:
Haggisman said:
Even though the waste was stolen?
Click to expand...

Was it? Thought she has already been interviewed and recorded where she has admitted its her waste, she never checked the builder out, she never got a waste receipt when it was collected and she let the man take the waste with her permission therefore he didn't steal anything?

Hard to go back now and claim it was stolen.

Its like admitting under taped interview its your car, you were drunk and you were driving it when it crashed and then later changing your story to "sorry, it was actually stolen" Doubt you get away with that .
 
Last edited:
Greebo, I'm still not convinced. In any case she is getting a solicitor and it isn't long until the court date so we will soon find out. I suspect as with a lot of things things they will push her to a guilty plea with a much-reduced fine so that captain jobsworth can get a tick in his box and prove to his mouth-breathing middle manager that he is worthy of his 37.5hrs/week role that he will undoubtably stay in until he can get early retirement with a cushy pension at 55. ****s. :o

There are lots of ways of skinning a cat but getting a criminal record and a £5,000 fine for letting somebody take away your rubbish is not by any stretch of the imagination a proportional response to the "crime".
 
Greebo said:
she let the man take the waste with her permission therefore he didn't steal anything?
Click to expand...

I don't think we've been told that she never checked the builder out?

If the guy who took it, did so by convincing her he was there legitimately to collect it, then surely that would be classed as fraud? So OK, not technically "stolen", but obtained via deception.

If you arranged a courier collection, and instead I turned up on the correct day and convinced you that I was the courier so you gave me the item, would that not be classed as theft/fraud on my part?



I find it very concerning that you can apparently so easily be found guilty of this without actually doing anything wrong, and I would hope that they would require more evidence than simply finding some boxes/paperwork with your details on.
 
Last edited:
Haggisman said:
I find it very concerning that you can apparently so easily be found guilty of this without actually doing anything wrong, and I would hope that they would require more evidence than simply finding some boxes/paperwork with your details on.
Click to expand...

I am afraid so. Ultimately the law is written that you are responsible as the producer. Unless you can show that you gave or paid for your waste to be moved by a licenced waste carrier or you took it yourself to a licenced waste disposal point, the buck stops with you.

And you would have done something wrong. I suspect more than 50% of people on here have never checked for a waste licence or rang the freephone checkline for their builder/decorator/joiner or when having work done at their house the contractor says they will take the waste away when the job is finished?

As soon as you haven't done that, if the waste turns up where it shouldn't then you are guilty. It might not seem fair and you might feel you have done nothing wrong but you did. You did not take due care in disposing of your waste.

There's a tv program was on recently following the waste enforcement officers. Basically they will sieve through the rubbish and hope to find a name and address. If they do, its take a picture and then go interview the person.

Saw one where the waste from her landscaped garden had been dumped, no address but it was close by and they could see she had had lots of work done to the garden. The landscape gardener firm had just dumped all the waste in the woods opposite. They managed to line up cuts and breaks in the branches to the tree in her garden and that was proof enough. It didnt matter that she had paid the contractors to do the work, she was still responsible.
 
Last edited:
Greebo said:
I am afraid so. Ultimately the law is written that you are responsible as the producer. Unless you can show that you gave or paid for your waste to be moved by a licenced waste carrier or you took it yourself to a licenced waste disposal point, the buck stops with you.

And you would have done something wrong. I suspect more than 50% of people on here have never checked for a waste licence or rang the freephone checkline for their builder/decorator/joiner or when having work done at their house the contractor says they will take the waste away when the job is finished?

As soon as you haven't done that, if the waste turns up where it shouldn't then you are guilty. It might not seem fair and you might feel you have done nothing wrong but you did. You did not take due care in disposing of your waste.
Click to expand...

And if someone decides to print out some letters with your name and address on them, or stick some labels on some boxes with your name and address on them, and dump them at the side of the road amongst a load of rubble/old furniture, what have you done wrong there?
 
Haggisman said:
And if someone decides to print out some letters with your name and address on them, or stick some labels on some boxes with your name and address on them, and dump them at the side of the road amongst a load of rubble/old furniture, what have you done wrong there?
Click to expand...

In that case you would be innocent, true. But in that case somebody has gone out of their way to frame you. To be fair they could frame you any number of ways for lots of things which would be hard for you to prove your innocence.

They wouldnt even have to print out fake letters, easiet way is just take the bin bag out of your wheelie bin before they come and collect it and then dump it with loads of other rubbish somewhere.
 
Greebo said:
Was it? Thought she has already been interviewed and recorded where she has admitted its her waste, she never checked the builder out, she never got a waste receipt when it was collected and she let the man take the waste with her permission therefore he didn't steal anything?

Hard to go back now and claim it was stolen.

Its like admitting under taped interview its your car, you were drunk and you were driving it when it crashed and then later changing your story to "sorry, it was actually stolen" Doubt you get away with that .
Click to expand...

but what if the builder does have the relevant paperwork... he's later sent his guy to go and collect it (or planned to) and this random bloke turns up to steal the waste (presumably to salvage scrap metal or whatever else he can). How can she be found guilt if she's had these things stolen.

Having said that she doesn't sound too sensible so it isn't clear if she had seen a solicitor or had one with her when first questioned by the council or had reported this to the police before meeting the council either...

OP you don't make that very clear - what did she do exactly when the builder's waste disposal person turned up later that day?
 
Greebo said:
In that case you would be innocent, true. But in that case somebody has gone out of their way to frame you. To be fair they could frame you any number of ways for lots of things which would be hard for you to prove your innocence.

They wouldnt even have to print out fake letters, easiet way is just take the bin bag out of your wheelie bin before they come and collect it and then dump it with loads of other rubbish somewhere.
Click to expand...

Yes but most other things they could frame you for require some kind of evidence - this doesn't appear to...
 
Greebo said:
They managed to line up cuts and breaks in the branches to the tree in her garden and that was proof enough. It didnt matter that she had paid the contractors to do the work, she was still responsible.
Click to expand...
Which is absolute, utter cretinous nonsense. Why should somebody be responsible for that when the people doing the work are the ones that have clearly broken the law? :mad::confused: I mean in that case they knew who did the work so why didn't they go after them? It's madness :confused:

dowie said:
Having said that she doesn't sound too sensible so it isn't clear if she had seen a solicitor or had one with her when first questioned by the council or had reported this to the police before meeting the council either...
Click to expand...
I don't see what is "not being sensible" about contracting out a builder to renovate your kitchen and entrusting them to take your rubbish away :confused: That's like, the most normal and common thing in the world! Like I've said, a guy turned up when she was expecting a guy to turn up and take away the rubbish :confused: As said above I suspect most people here have never even thought about checking into a licence to remove waste or whatever it's called.

dowie said:
OP you don't make that very clear - what did she do exactly when the builder's waste disposal person turned up later that day?
Click to expand...
I don't actually know, but would it have helped? Her rubbish was still dumped, in the council's mind she is guilty. The law around this is so flawed it's not even funny.
 
Greebo said:
WHy? As the law stands all they have to do is

1. Prove that its your waste - its got her name and address on it
2. Has she got proof the builder has a waste disposal licence or did she check him out with the free phone number - No, clearly she never even asked as didnt realise you legally had to
3. Has she got a Duty of Care waste disposl ticket when the waste was collected? - No

therefore all three of defences, she hasnt got one. All you could do in court is have a good solicitor who could argue mitigating circumstances to get the penalty reduced. The fact remains she is 100% guilty of breaking the law. Its just a question of whether it will be a few hundred pound penalty of 1000s. Remember its a magistrate she goes up in front off. He does not have the power to rule her not guilty if she has broken the law. The only leaway he has is her sentence.
Click to expand...


I was told by a police officer that ignorance of the law can actually be a defence although I don't recall the circumstances. If this is the case then magistrate could throw it out? The magistrate could place a portion of blame on the builder? I would have at least a bit of faith in the courts to do the right thing even if its just pay for the clean up.
 
tom_e said:
Was the guy that turned up actually sent by the builder or was it just very unfortunate timing?
Click to expand...

This is what i am stuck on also, if some random bloke turned up did she pay him? Nobody is just going to stop and pick up some womans rubbish and not be paid?
 
Scam said:
I don't see what is "not being sensible" about contracting out a builder to renovate your kitchen and entrusting them to take your rubbish away :confused: That's like, the most normal and common thing in the world! Like I've said, a guy turned up when she was expecting a guy to turn up and take away the rubbish :confused: As said above I suspect most people here have never even thought about checking into a licence to remove waste or whatever it's called.

I don't actually know, but would it have helped? Her rubbish was still dumped, in the council's mind she is guilty. The law around this is so flawed it's not even funny.
Click to expand...

well throwing documents away with your address on and not recycling for a start

then when she realised later that day that some random guy had come to take away her old kitchen parts and some rubbish... after the actual disposal guy turned up then perhaps calling the police to report it would have been both sensible and rather helpful

I mean even if she'd been lazy with the recycling still she could at least show the council that she's got a crime reference number relating to this rubbish on the day it was taken away. It is a simple phone call to 101 to report it. That is what I mean by not being very sensible.
 
We are responsible for our rubbish even if someone else takes it away? so every Friday when my bins get emptied by the council, I am responsible until they get it to the dump? where does my responsibility end?

Last Friday when I got home, after the binmen, I noticed a bag and smashed glass on the road of the exit of my cul-de-sac. I'm 100% sure the binmen therefore the council caused this, shall I do them for fly tipping? I spent 3 minutes of my precious time going out there and sweeping it up.

What happens if a postman loses a bag of letters the council later finds, are the recipients of the letters going to be blamed for fly tipping?

I can't imagine your friend being found at fault or guilty. Seems like the council is losing money on fly tipping because of crap court cases like this one.

A van and £7.20 an hour, about £80 day total expenses for 1 bloke to go around picking up fly tipping, or spend thousands on taking someone to court who will be found not guilty.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom