Angela Merkel and her decisions

[Nitefly]

I don't get the argument that it's a security problem. Bank robbers will probably wear masks and be careful about there identity... is the problem that you can't be sure that those that usually wear head scarfs aren't the ones robbing the banks?? (For the avoidance of doubt, I would consider that fairly dense logic)

 

[Roar87]

So along with veils we should also ban hoodies, baseball caps and jackets with really high necks?

I think if people are using those items to obscure their face then they should be asked to remove them in public places, with obvious practical considerations taken into account. I don't think we need to lock people up, but we do need to stress it's importance to our culture that people don't think they're in Saudi Arabia when they infact live in Great Britain

 

[Amp34]

I think if people are using those items to obscure their face then they should be asked to remove them in public places, with obvious practical considerations taken into account. I don't think we need to lock people up, but we do need to stress it's importance to our culture that people don't think they're in Saudi Arabia when they infact live in Great Britain

And in pretty much any place where people would be asked to remove them people with veils either won't be going anyway or they will be asked to show someone their face as well.

We don't ban people wearing hoodies in the park for example, but people seem to be advocating a ban on veils that would.

 

[Scrutinize]

LGBT people don't have imaginary friends as a rule.

Why are you inciting religious hatred and showing contempt and total intolerance for people who chose to believe in a deity. There are a number of people who do it on this forum.

 

[RDM]

Why are you inciting religious hatred and showing contempt and total intolerance for people who chose to believe in a deity. There are a number of people who do it on this forum.

How on earth is that inciting religious hatred?

 

[itchy]

Why are you inciting religious hatred and showing contempt and total intolerance for people who chose to believe in a deity. There are a number of people who do it on this forum.

Am out! Just nope.

 

[jl10000]

Why are you inciting religious hatred and showing contempt and total intolerance for people who chose to believe in a deity.

Billions of people believe in the mystical man in the sky, do not expect me to give them any respect, damn **********.

 

[Roar87]

And in pretty much any place where people would be asked to remove them people with veils either won't be going anyway or they will be asked to show someone their face as well.

We don't ban people wearing hoodies in the park for example, but people seem to be advocating a ban on veils that would.

Deliberately hiding your face in public is just not culturally acceptable to me. It is antisocial and just screams that you have absolutely no intention of assimilating into our culture or being part of it. Hoodies in parks are not full face veils in public, it is not the same thing, you know it isn't.

 

[Narj]

Billions of people believe in the mystical man in the sky, do not expect me to give them any respect, damn **********.

If I have an imaginary friend, I am committed to an institution.

If millions of people have the same imaginary friend, it's callled religion.

 

[Nitefly]

Deliberately hiding your face in public is just not culturally acceptable to me. It is antisocial and just screams that you have absolutely no intention of assimilating into our culture or being part of it. Hoodies in parks are not full face veils in public, it is not the same thing, you know it isn't.

I think it ultimately boils down to 'you don't like it'. It doesn't reallly bother me and to the extent it does bother me I appreciate its a different way of doing things. It's not like I deliberately try to fit in with all my fellow chumps in the supermarket, it's just what's comfortable.

 

[Tefal]

But we are not discussing a law that would be specific to certain places. We are discussing a law that would ban the veil in all public places. There is a big difference between them.

I'm pretty much with you on the latter paragraph though. While I don't believe people should be forced not to wear a veil, there are situations where a veil should be removed for safety reasons. Modern petrol stations probably aren't too much of an issue now anyway as you can usually pay at the pump, it's also unlikely many people in full face veils go to the pub/bars so that's also not an issue.

Go get a typical ira/sas wool balaclava attempt to do your usual daily life activityea.

Go to a bank, a super market a petrol station a pub etc.

See if you are alwowd to wear it in any of these public places

it's also unlikely many people in full face veils go to the pub/bars so that's also not an issue.

Errm juice bar, smoothie bars shisha bars normal bars etc all of them have women in face veils.

Try going to a muslim area like Rusholme heck take the balaclava with you while your at it see if they let you in

 

[Tefal]

I don't get the argument that it's a security problem. Bank robbers will probably wear masks and be careful about there identity... is the problem that you can't be sure that those that usually wear head scarfs aren't the ones robbing the banks?? (For the avoidance of doubt, I would consider that fairly dense logic)

Well there was the male terrorist who dressed in a full burhka think to escape from the police the other year

 

[Tefal]

And in pretty much any place where people would be asked to remove them people with veils either won't be going anyway or they will be asked to show someone their face as well.

Errr not true at all.

Or do you think muslims dont go shopping?

 

[Tefal]

Why are you inciting religious hatred and showing contempt and total intolerance for people who chose to believe in a deity. There are a number of people who do it on this forum.

Ding ding.

You just scuppered your own comparison.

People choose to belive people dont choose to be lgbt or black or white etc

 

[Angilion]

Sorry, why are you defending what you said? You levied a direct insult at believers. And again another one. Your religious intolerance and hatred is not acceptable. It's no different to people who use the sky fairy insult. A direct and personal attack on people who believe in a deity.

You wouldn't cast insults in the same way at another group such as LGBT or ethic minorities.

I'm not the person you're lying at, but I'll put in my reply:

Your comparison of a biological group that people don't choose to be in with an ideology that people choose to follow is so obviously wrong that when combined with your false accusation of hatred I think it's reasonable to say you're probably being deliberately deceptive for propaganda purposes. Claiming to be a victim is useful for gaining political power.

Show me evidence of the existence of your god(s) and I'll stop thinking of them as imaginary. I wouldn't call them "imaginary friends" because most of them are very, very far indeed from being friends of humans. Petulant, psychopathic, childish mass-murdering tyrants are not friends.

 

[Amp34]

Go get a typical ira/sas wool balaclava attempt to do your usual daily life activityea.

Go to a bank, a super market a petrol station a pub etc.

See if you are alwowd to wear it in any of these public places



Errm juice bar, smoothie bars shisha bars normal bars etc all of them have women in face veils.

Try going to a muslim area like Rusholme heck take the balaclava with you while your at it see if they let you in

You know very well I was meaning bars with alcohol...

As for a balaclava I'd assume for most of those examples it would very much depend on the intent (outside of a few specific locations. If it was -20 then wearing a balaclava would be forgiven much more. People don't wear a veil to hide their face because they may be committing a crime, whereas just randomly wearing a balaclava is going to arouse suspicion, unless there is a specific reason (such as said temperature).

 

[Amp34]

Deliberately hiding your face in public is just not culturally acceptable to me. It is antisocial and just screams that you have absolutely no intention of assimilating into our culture or being part of it. Hoodies in parks are not full face veils in public, it is not the same thing, you know it isn't.

It is in some ways, but I'll grant you in this situation it isn't... because it has little to do with covering their face as you admit.

I think Nitefly covered the rest fairly concisely.

 

[ttaskmaster]

LGBT people don't have imaginary friends as a rule.

Many have (and occasionally are) a fairy godmother, though!!

There are other options per banning it though. It's not an either or, just because you aren't taking action by banning it doesn't mean action cannot be taken.

I think the best action would be for 'the people' to socially pressure it out of use, but co-ordinating that to happen in a socially acceptable fashion (ie, not too light a touch to be ineffective, not to heavy that people are kicking each other in on the streets) would be virtually impossible.

they want it banned because it's an overt symbol of a religion they dislike.

Plenty of people dislike Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism and so on, but I don't hear of calls for bans on turbans, skull caps, shemaghs and all that... well, occasionally shemaghs, but those come from outside the country instead.

You really can't compare an item of clothing that is worm by the majority of people voluntarily to the swastika.

1 - The point is that it's NOT being worn voluntarily by the majority.
2 - Both are representations of oppression when used in such contexts.

I may be wrong here but I also don't believe they have banned stripy pyjamas in Germany - I'm happy to be corrected though.

Ah yes, very clever. Well done.
That senetence was in reference to Nazi symbology, not the pyjamas (including yellow star) from the following paragraph, which again was in reference to things representative of oppression.

Also they aren't all black.

Did I say they all were?

But as you yourself point out you know why they are covering their face, so wats the issue?

They're covering it because their menfolk tell them they have to and, in many cases, they will suffer if they don't. This kind of treatment is not considered acceptable in the UK and THAT is the issue.

Just because someone comes over to the UK (or europe) doesn't mean they have to abandon all their cultural heritage, especially when it's almost the equivalent of forcing all women to walk around topless.

OK, so I can force all my womenfolk to wear veils, yes?
No, you say???!!!
Why do you think that is?
Why can they do something I cannot in my own country?
Why are they not subject to the same conventions I am?

Yes, that's fine, but we (the west) are supposed to be beacons of liberty, freedom and equality.

So why would we allow people to force others to wear something they don't want to?
Is it not oppression if you don't know you're being oppressed, then?
Is it not oppression if you don't have the freedom to escape it, then?
Is it not equality if you import the oppression, then?

It's a two-way thing. The West affords you that liberty, freedom and equality, on the condition that you uphold this and don't start trying to take it away from other people.

To enact a law that banning an item of clothing that isn't hurting anyone is not any of those things. It's basically the antithesis of what the western world stands for.

Not hurting anyone... Socially isolating and discriminating against a gender, or even a specific group within that gender, isn't hurting anyone?
Encouraging and even endorsing sexual assault of those NOT wearing the item is NOT hurting anyone?
In some countries, the wearing of this stuff is enforced through violence and it stands to reason (as well as some actual reports from those brave enough to speak out) that the same happens here, which is handy because the garments also hide the marks of that violence... and you think it's not hurting anyone?

So why on EARTH would the Court of Human Rights uphold the French ban, then?
Why did France, Bulgaria, Switzerland and Belgium ban them in teh first place? Why are Holland, Italy, Egypt and now Germany gunning for the same thing?

You're free to drink in pretty much every other muslim country for example (especially if you aren't muslim - which I believe is actually also the case in Saudi).

Yes, you're legally free to, just like you're free to marry the same gender of person over here... but similarly, I seriously doubt everyone is doing flips and twists over your legal right. Certainly my friends in Iran would take great pains to caution you against doing it in public. It's legal, but considered seriously bad taste. You might even get a kicking if the opportunity presents.

We don't ban people wearing hoodies in the park for example, but people seem to be advocating a ban on veils that would.

There have been a fair few local bans on hoodies in public places, venues and the like, in fact, for similar reasons. Harrow bus station once had signs up at one point and busses wouldn't let you on if you were wearing one. The Police usually had a car or two holed up there and sometimes intervened to enforce the ban.
In Watford, I think it was, the shopping centre tried it and a bunch of pensioners started wearing them to 'gross out' the kids so they'd fall out of fashion.

And in pretty much any place where people would be asked to remove them people with veils either won't be going anyway or they will be asked to show someone their face as well.

What, like schools that have a dress code?
Oh yeah, forgot - Women don't need education, right!

 

[Amp34]

I think the best action would be for 'the people' to socially pressure it out of use, but co-ordinating that to happen in a socially acceptable fashion (ie, not too light a touch to be ineffective, not to heavy that people are kicking each other in on the streets) would be virtually impossible.

That's already happening as I have already mentioned. It's unlikely you're going to change the mind of someone that has worn a veil for 30 years before moving to the UK/Germany, or someone that comes for a few weeks on holiday, but society and schooling in general means those born in the UK will rarely end up wearing a veil, even if their mother does.

It's a self solving problem.

Plenty of people dislike Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism and so on, but I don't hear of calls for bans on turbans, skull caps, shemaghs and all that... well, occasionally shemaghs, but those come from outside the country instead.

So where are all the threads on here about those religions? You know full well that islam is taking the brunt of the dislike on this forum and in this country.

1 - The point is that it's NOT being worn voluntarily by the majority.
2 - Both are representations of oppression when used in such contexts.


Ah yes, very clever. Well done.
That senetence was in reference to Nazi symbology, not the pyjamas (including yellow star) from the following paragraph, which again was in reference to things representative of oppression.

They're covering it because their menfolk tell them they have to and, in many cases, they will suffer if they don't. This kind of treatment is not considered acceptable in the UK and THAT is the issue.

Do you have any evidence that the majority of people in the UK are being forced to wear them?

That'll be a no I assume

Most women are no more "forced" to wear a veil than Sihk men are "forced" to wear a turban (or for that matter a christian wearing a cross).

I will concede some are forced to (as I have already mentioned), but those cases should be dealt with on a case by case basis, not by banning an item of clothing.

OK, so I can force all my womenfolk to wear veils, yes?
No, you say???!!!
Why do you think that is?
Why can they do something I cannot in my own country?
Why are they not subject to the same conventions I am?

I have no idea what you are talking about here, but I'll just say that if you want to wear a veil then no one is stopping you, It's not illegal after all.

So why would we allow people to force others to wear something they don't want to?
Is it not oppression if you don't know you're being oppressed, then?
Is it not oppression if you don't have the freedom to escape it, then?
Is it not equality if you import the oppression, then?

It's a two-way thing. The West affords you that liberty, freedom and equality, on the condition that you uphold this and don't start trying to take it away from other people.

See the point above. This is just a repeat of the other comments. You're replacing one possible form or oppression and repression with another.

Deal with the issue by dealing with those that force their women to wear a veil against their will, not force all women that want to wear a veil not to.

Not hurting anyone... Socially isolating and discriminating against a gender, or even a specific group within that gender, isn't hurting anyone?

That is hurting people, which is the prime reason I am AGAINST banning veils.

Encouraging and even endorsing sexual assault of those NOT wearing the item is NOT hurting anyone?

Luckily there are already laws in place to cover this.

In some countries, the wearing of this stuff is enforced through violence and it stands to reason (as well as some actual reports from those brave enough to speak out) that the same happens here, which is handy because the garments also hide the marks of that violence... and you think it's not hurting anyone?

In a minority of countries this happens, but we are not in those countries. Ironically you're proposing that the wearing of these items is enforced by either violence (forced removal of the veil if worn), monetary penalties (fines) or imprisonment be implemented in the UK/Germany.

There are issues with veils, but banning them is not the best choice.

So why on EARTH would the Court of Human Rights uphold the French ban, then?
Why did France, Bulgaria, Switzerland and Belgium ban them in teh first place? Why are Holland, Italy, Egypt and now Germany gunning for the same thing?

You'll find those bans were not specifically banning veils. They are bans on facial covering, which include veils, but also scarves, masks and helmets.

It's also worth pointing out that those laws may have increased the chance of violence against those wearing veils.

For example

"These women receive a lot of insults in the streets," De Feo says. "Normal people always want to make justice themselves." In 2013, a pregnant Muslim woman miscarried after two men attacked her and tried to remove her headscarf.

http://www.dw.com/en/five-years-into-ban-burqa-divide-widens-in-france/a-19177275

The reality is these laws have't reduced the number of people wearing them, in fact it may have actually increased the number... As I said earlier it's a bit like forcing all women to go topless, obviously most would not remove their tops and would either not go out, or just go out with a top and hope not to be fined/imprisoned.

Yes, you're legally free to, just like you're free to marry the same gender of person over here... but similarly, I seriously doubt everyone is doing flips and twists over your legal right. Certainly my friends in Iran would take great pains to caution you against doing it in public. It's legal, but considered seriously bad taste. You might even get a kicking if the opportunity presents.

So are you advocating we be more like Iran and give people a kicking because they wear a veil? Even then, bad taste isn't illegal.

There have been a fair few local bans on hoodies in public places, venues and the like, in fact, for similar reasons. Harrow bus station once had signs up at one point and busses wouldn't let you on if you were wearing one. The Police usually had a car or two holed up there and sometimes intervened to enforce the ban.
In Watford, I think it was, the shopping centre tried it and a bunch of pensioners started wearing them to 'gross out' the kids so they'd fall out of fashion.


What, like schools that have a dress code?
Oh yeah, forgot - Women don't need education, right!

I'm not arguing against specific bans for specific locations due to specific instances. I'm arguing against a wholesale ban in public places. In fact I've already mentioned multiple times that I think bans in certain places are perfectly reasonable. If there are issues with people that wear veils in a certain park for example then I have no issues with a ban on veils at that venue. The reality is it's unlikely you're going to get a gang of veiled women causing mischief at your local park or bus station.

As for schools I believe that most are tolerant to religions symbology. A turban isn't school uniform, but very few schools would force people to take them off would they. Hence you're creating a situation out of nothing - wearing a veil isn't going to stop you getting an education in the UK - unless of course a ban is enforced by law.

 

[Roar87]

It still baffles the hell out of me why the left defends Islam to the hilt, when they'd be the first to be imprisoned in an Islamic state