Can employer stipulate this or is it against working time regs?

Teknobry

Teknobry

Teknobry

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Friend of mine has been offered a job, contract states home is place of work and he'll be visiting clients in an area that covers stoke to scotland, over to north wales, IOM & northern ireland.

it's a 35hr contract but when the travel time was queried (own time or company time) the answer given was:
"we expect 7hrs of work each day, when travelling to appointments away from home it is reasonable for the 7 hrs to start at the beginning of the first appointment and end when leaving the last appointment. This means travel is in the employees own time."

to me this is exactly what the new working time directive thing was about, that travel time is classed as company time.
the contract states there is no overtime paid and no flexi time either.

The worry is obviously a supposed 35hr contract ends up 50hrs.

Thoughts/advice?

He's tempted to email back and explain the concerns possibly with links to working time directive.
 
There was a court ruling that stated travel too and from first and last appointments counted as working time. If their office location is "home", then any time travelling from their "office" location to another location for businesses would count as working time imho. I would say the company are on very shaky ground and he should challenge their wording - I'd certainly be speaking to a union rep in that instance.

But don't worry, due to Brexit, employers will soon be allowed to exploit workers again :D
 
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If the work was within your country I think that is reasonble. However basically all of the UK. They're taking the mick.

Depends on the salary, hourly or salaried? Either way I'd expect much higher income than the same job, but just doing 7 hours with say 1 hour driving time max per day.
 
hornetstinger said:
If the work was within your country I think that is reasonble.
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Really? So a 9 hr commute from the Scottish border to Lands End for a 1hr appointment and a 9 hr commute back should only count as 1hr or work? You think that's reasonable.

Or did you mean county, not country.

Regardless of country or county, it's still not a reasonable stance for the employer to take, as seen in the linked court case.
 
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Just have the first appointment at 9am then the 2nd appointment at 4pm (for an hour) then nothing in-between... They can't have it both ways see how long it takes them to moan your only doing two appointments a day. :P
 
amigafan2003 said:
Really? So a 5 hr commute to Scotland for a 1hr appointment and a 5 hr commute back should only count as 1hr or work? You think that's reasonable.
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no no no if it's on salary then that "7 hour day" is acceptable even if travelling 5 hours of that. But only if it's decent salary.

For hourly rate of course that would be crap.
 
it's a salary with no overtime or flexi.

It's a shame because the job spec is good, money is decent but if travel isn't included (if that's legal) then work/life balance would be crap.
 
Teknobry said:
it's a salary with no overtime or flexi.

It's a shame because the job spec is good, money is decent but if travel isn't included (if that's legal) then work/life balance would be crap.
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Really depends on the salary.

Say it was for a IT support person, at £13,000. That would be mega crap. But if the salary was £35,000 then it would be acceptable.

That upper figure depends on you of course.

Also it depends on how often travelling those distances are required. Rarely, occasionally, or very often? That would factor in how much you would think salary is right...might accept lower salary if travelling is rare, but want higher salary if it's very often (or indeed regular whole) weekends away.

Or how much time they give you ahead, ie "need you in scotland this evening" or "in a month we need you to go up to scotland"
 
The issue isn't so much 'is it worth it for the money?' more a case of are they allowed to do this?

With this being a new job role no one is sure exactly how much travelling will be involved. own car is needed but milage is claimed back.
'ocassional overnight stays' are in the contract (instead of travelling there and back in a day).
 
They're exploiting a grey area as to whether he's actually a mobile worker (as per the ECJ ruling).

He should ask them how much time it's expected he'll be visiting clients vs time spent working at home.
 
You know the main issue here is if he tries to dispute it, I expect they will either revoke the job offer or if already started can get rid of him without any recourse due to new employee.
 
amigafan2003 said:
Really? So a 9 hr commute from the Scottish border to Lands End for a 1hr appointment and a 9 hr commute back should only count as 1hr or work? You think that's reasonable.

Or did you mean county, not country.

Regardless of country or county, it's still not a reasonable stance for the employer to take, as seen in the linked court case.
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Well if it's high pay pe hour then I supppose yeah hehe like £150 per hour :D so even you're there for 1 hour, then that 9 hour travelling (despite being unpaid) Is acceptable as you're getting £150 for that 1 hour.
 
Ace Modder said:
You know the main issue here is if he tries to dispute it, I expect they will either revoke the job offer or if already started can get rid of him without any recourse due to new employee.
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Indeed, whether it's legal or not he's obviously not happy about it so the only option is to say no thank you and move on.
 
I have a similiar job, but I schedule all my meetings myself. I can organise appointments to be suitable based on my working time etc.

IE. book a customer meeting for 11am when it's a 3 hrs commute. That way leave at 8am. I don't mind the odd meeting to carry on so I get home about 7pm, but mostly I organise it so that 2nd meeting might be at 2pm, finish at 3pm. Be home for 6pm. That is reasonable for a role such as this.

How many days per week will your friend be expected to be travelling. I stay away overnight too, I claim any hotel bills back, and any trips that are more than 50 miles from my house I get an allowance for food/drink too which I can claim back. Overnight stays give me a further expense claim option.

If I'm at home I typically work from 8:30am to 6pm, and generally don't have a proper break during that time, as I'm at home. But I feel that's fine. I#'m contracted for 37hrs per week, but that schedule is more like 45-50 hours. More if I'm out visiting people as part of my job.

On the flip side, if I need an hour to do soemthing none work related, I can, my employer is fair and understands the flexibility of working from home. I can occasionally be sat working at 10pm still. However that is 100% my own choice and I do it because I enjoy my job and if it benefits me and my employer I will happily do it.
 
Also don't think the OP has mentioned, but is the company providing a car and fuel costs for travelling to client sites.

The bottom line comes down to how regular and the typical distances involved to travel to client sites. At one end if you've gotta do a 3 hour drive each way, once a fortnight, to doing 2 hours each way four days a week, then the latter i'd be certainly complaining about.
 
Employers try to pull this all the time with mobile jobs. In my last role I had a massive argument with management when they rejected my OT claim for travel to a 9am meeting in Saint Ives. That's a 5-hour journey from my house meaning I got up at 3am and was in the car by 4am. Their view was that travel to the first meeting counted as commuting time. I disagreed and did eventually win the argument and got paid for it. Interestingly, the company changed policy shortly afterwards to state that meeting times needed to be set with consideration for the travel time within business hours.
 
Rilot said:
Employers try to pull this all the time with mobile jobs. In my last role I had a massive argument with management when they rejected my OT claim for travel to a 9am meeting in Saint Ives. That's a 5-hour journey from my house meaning I got up at 3am and was in the car by 4am. Their view was that travel to the first meeting counted as commuting time. I disagreed and did eventually win the argument and got paid for it. Interestingly, the company changed policy shortly afterwards to state that meeting times needed to be set with consideration for the travel time within business hours.
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getting up at 3am for a 5 hour drive... **** that
 
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