Australian parenting - No Jab, no play and no rebate

[Avenged7Fold]

You associate those concerns with rumour.

If you look at the data posted just up the page, it is obvious which carries significant risk and which doesnt. If after that you have concerns over getting vaccinated, then you either dont trust the data or you dont work out which number is bigger...

 

[Eddie]

I'm reading that statement for what it says, nothing more, not associating anything with anything.

 

[shorttricky]

Well, from just reading an NHS site alone they state that ''most side-effects of vaccines are mild''.

That statement alone would raise a few concerns for me, nothing to do with anything 'conspiracy'.

Most side effects are mild...

Common side effects of any vaccine can include:

• injection site reactions (pain, swelling and redness)
• mild fever
• shivering
• fatigue
• headache
• muscle and joint pain

...are easily treated with Calpol and are gone in under 24 hours.

If that raises concerns, you really want to read the little leaflet in the box the next time you want to take paracetamol or ibuprofen.

Alternatively, you could look at the common complications of measles

More common complications of measles include:

• diarrhoea and vomiting, which can lead to dehydration
• middle ear infection (otitis media), which can cause earache
• eye infection (conjunctivitis)
• inflammation of the voice box (laryngitis)
• pneumonia, bronchitis and croup – infections of the airways and lungs
• fits caused by a fever (febrile seizures)

About 1 in every 15 children with measles will develop complications like these.

Honestly, I'm starting to think you're not even a real doctor

 

[Eddie]

Yes, well I'm not a doctor (except in TF2) or a parent.

I'm only trying to see it from both sides and don't like the way anybody who asks questions are immediately labelled an idiot or a conspiracy nut. Maybe if I was a parent I'd see it differently.

 

[xyphic]

Yes, well I'm not a doctor (except in TF2) or a parent.

I'm only trying to see it from both sides and don't like the way anybody who asks questions are immediately labelled an idiot or a conspiracy nut. Maybe if I was a parent I'd see it differently.

You're a good example of how dangerous misinformation about vaccination can be. Some people -- even those who you'd think should be intelligent or show a modicum of common sense -- take what they're told at face value and are more likely to believe something negative than something positive. In this case, you've been told that the MMR vaccine has a link to autism, and this has triggered something in you that makes you inherently distrustful of vaccination even after being told that the link has been comprehensively debunked many times over.

You're right that you should ask questions, but you should also make sure that you're asking the *right* ones and that you're willing to accept the answers you get from the experts who answer them. So if you ask the question "is autism linked to the MMR vaccine" and the experts say "no" you should probably believe it. If you ask "are there any side-effects to vaccines" and the experts say "yes, but they're usually mild and the cases that aren't are exceedingly rare" you need to be formulating your next question. Which should be "is there more risk in having the vaccine than not having it" to which the answer would be "no, the risk to your child's health and the health of the general population is significantly higher if they are not vaccinated".

FWIW, my son is being investigated for potential ASD. I just took him for his 3.5 year MMR booster, and I'm happy that while we might have hard times ahead dealing with his condition, I'm not going to have to worry about him getting a horrible disease. As and when he gets some siblings they'll also be vaccinated.

 

[Avenged7Fold]

don't like the way anybody who asks questions are immediately labelled an idiot or a conspiracy nut.

With everything in front of you laid bare, how can questioning it not label you as one or the other when not getting it is shown to have real significant risks compared to the negligible risk of not being vaccinated.

Fair enough ask the questions but accept the proven answers rather than entertain the stupid ones.

If the harm of indulging the idiots was only to the decision maker, i wouldn't care but in this case it is to everyone

 

[asim18]

A stupid argument, we have evolved for an exponentially longer time on four legs, dependence on two wont be our undoing...

Haha what? You don't understand evolution do you? If you did you'd understand that the changes in our legs/arms have nothing do do with anything whatsoever.

We haven't just lost 2 of our legs lol. They didn't just fall off and then arms appeared. We still possess "front legs". Over time they have been established to perform more dexterous tasks. And what exposes your complete lack of understanding of evolution is that our feet and legs have evolved to support the "loss" of two of our arms. lol

So yes, you are right that "dependence on two wont be our undoing" That's because simply reducing the number of legs we walk on isn't a retardation or going backwards. Feet and legs have also adapted at the same rate. Therefore Both Legs/Feet and Arms/Hands are going forwards.

There's no "undoing" and I have no idea what that any of this has to do with artificial means of sustaining life.

Stupid, allowing a disease to flourish seals the fate of further generations even when their ancestors have immunity. If genes of immunity passed on the way you wished, we would never had to deal with highly infectious diseases like polio that were rife in the first half of the 20th century. People with immunity to effects or resistances still pass the infection on and survive but their children may not and they would still be at risk when they their immune systems are compromised in the many number of ways they can be. Why give diseases the breeding ground to change and evolve? Resistant strains do not evolve because we use drugs, they evolve because we the non resistant strains dont survive the drugs and we stupidly create of ideal environments for these resistant diseases to flourish through poor hygiene - such as poorly cleaned hospitals.

Are you trolling me? You need to read up on polio mate. "In up to 70% of infections there are no symptoms."

Polio is spread through infected poop. The route of transmission is the fecal-oral route lmao. Surely you don't think people are literally pooping through people's letterboxes lol. 100% of polio cases vanish just by making sure you're not eating or drinking pieces of ****.

Ever thought that the reason that "polio was rife" is simply because the people affected were just eating or drinking poop?


"highly infectious diseases like polio"

Yeah as I explained above, colds and flus are more "infectious" than polio unless you have someone pooping through your letterbox and you then decide to eat it. lmaooooo

Also Polio isn't the only thing lurking in faeces lmao. If you think getting vaccinated against polio is actually doing anything to protect you from the dangers of faeces you are wrong. There are many other types of enterovirus and many other issues with eating or drinking poop. Polio isn't the only one. So even if you do ingest dirty **** you will get some sort of virus going into you.

There is no paradox. Being immunised does not mean you cant get the disease, you can still get it and are much more likely to if you allow everyone who doesn't have a natural resistance to the disease to get it. You can also still be effected from the disease very badly depending on the state of your body at the time. Purging the disease quickly and before the very infectious symptoms kick in, heavily reduces the spread of the disease.

If your logic was correct we would still have the odd cases of polio in the UK every year. but NHS says there hasn't been a case in the uk since 1984. we are very much well within our power to wipe it out completely.

You're talking to me about "logic" but you completely ignore the route of transmission of polio hahahaha. You can "wipe out polio" just by not eating ****, and drinking clean water. LOL. Also how on earth can you know there's never been a case since 1984 when "In up to 70% of infections there are no symptoms.".

And you're talking to me about logic?

Oh please.

 

[StriderX]

Oh please indeed.

 

[Dis86]

Lol asim.

 

[Freakbro]

He certainly has conviction in his beliefs....

 

[asim18]

Yet all three of you are unable to logcally retort anything whatsoever?

I have explained polio and how and why it is eradicated in very easy to understand terms but you cannot retort anything.

I'm not saying it causes autism by the way.


The dude literally said there aren't polio cases because of vaccination. It's not some conspiracy that ""In up to 70% of infections there are no symptoms."" That is in the Wikipedia article for polio WITH a reference.

It's not some conspiracy that polio is transmitted through the faecal-oral route. lol

It's not some conspiracy that polio isn't the only danger in faeces.

You just deny these BASIC elements and still assume that a simple polio vaccination is actually going to protect you from ALL the crap that's lurking in poop?

Do you guys eat **** regularly or something? Well you obviously don't, no one does, because polio isn't the only thing you can even catch through the fecal oral route.

 

[Freakbro]

Do you guys eat **** regularly or something?

No more or less than you do, or do you think every minimum wage lacky washes their hands before serving you your takeaway.....

If you think the only faecal-oral route is by directly eating or drinking ***** water, then...

Why am I even bothering to reply to such nonsense?

 

[Dis86]

No more or less than you do, or do you think every minimum wage lacky washes their hands before serving you your takeaway.....

If you think the only faecal-oral route is by directly eating or drinking ***** water, then...

Why am I even bothering to reply to such nonsense?

Precisely why I didn't bother.

 

[Eddie]

With everything in front of you laid bare, how can questioning it not label you as one or the other when not getting it is shown to have real significant risks compared to the negligible risk of not being vaccinated.

Fair enough ask the questions but accept the proven answers rather than entertain the stupid ones.

If the harm of indulging the idiots was only to the decision maker, i wouldn't care but in this case it is to everyone

It is true that I do not know anything about vaccines, I never said I did, in fact I have never researched a single thing relating to vaccines apart from reading the NHS bit about it today.

I'm not someone who comes from the anti-vaccine side of the argument (they probably wouldn't want me anyway ) but rather I am more someone who doesn't immediately trust the information given by either side of the argument about a particular subject.

If I had to make the decision for my own child it would take a long time before I swung one way or the other, I'd imagine (I still haven't got my dog chipped!). I really do feel for any parents out there who might be a little unsure on what to do for the best, simply due to what's at stake.

I think it's pretty understandable for people not to trust everything they are told these days.

 

[asim18]

No more or less than you do, or do you think every minimum wage lacky washes their hands before serving you your takeaway.....

If you think the only faecal-oral route is by directly eating or drinking ***** water, then...

Why am I even bothering to reply to such nonsense?

Exactly. If you're not bothered to post anything deduced through logic then don't post at all.

But thanks for explaining one of the main ways of stopping ALL diseases, not just polio; hygiene.

Hygiene has increased EXPONENTIALLY, but oh lets just ignore that and not attribute any improvement in health to it shall we.

In fact food poisoning from take aways is taken VERY seriously. If people start getting sick from a certain take away it will get investigated through reporting.

then...

Then you're not suddenly going to drop dead. Firstly there needs to be polio present, and ONLY polio, for your "vaccine against polio" to even potentially have total efficacy. Secondly 70% of cases show NO SYMPTOMS!

But everyone knows that's not the case. The chances of polio being the only enterovirus on that guys dirty hands is pretty slim. There are many other actual hazards from poor hygiene and sanitation.

 

[Sankari]

I don't understand how not having your child vaccinated is dangerous to other children who are vaccinated.

Nobody said that unvaccinated children are dangerous to vaccinated children. The issue is that unvaccinated children are dangerous to other children who haven't yet received their full vaccination schedule, or have a compromised immune system that prevents them from receiving vaccines, or some other reason. This has already been explained. Here it is again:

I do understand parents being cautious about vaccinations though, as you have to have a lot of faith that the various governments/organisations/medical bodies are actually telling you the truth.

Do we all trust the various governments/organisations/medical bodies to tell us 100% truth 100% of the time?

Not sure I do.

Vaccine research is undertaken by independent bodies. This has nothing to do with trusting the government. Even better, the success of vaccination speaks for itself:

This is not about trust, it's about objective evidence that you can see for yourself every day. You can quibble all you like, but you can't deny reality.

 

[Angilion]

[..]
Yes I do, I can understand parents being unsure and cautious. I certainly would be if I was in the same position.

Not every parent that has a concern is a conspiracy nut job. It's you that doesn't understand their position.

I do understand their position. The fact that their position contradicts itself (deliberately putting your children at risk of permanent damage or death because some other people gain money and power from you doing so is not a cautious position regarding your children's health) and requires belief in a perfect global conspiracy (you say yourself that it requires every government and medical organisation to be lying about it) doesn't mean that I can't understand it.

It's true that not every parent that has a concern is a conspiracy nutjob.

It's also true that every person who believes that every medical organisation in the world is part of a conspiracy to use secret technology to suppress some dangerous diseases (the diseases are suppressed, so if it's not vaccination then it must be some secret technology) while using vaccination as a cover for some nefarious purpose is a conspiracy nutjob.

I certainly would be cautious if I was in the same position...so I'd take the cautious route and have my child vaccinated against everything I could have them vaccinated against.

Perhaps it helps that I am (a) old enough to remember the very faint remnants of the tail end of a few of the diseases and (b) slightly interested in some periods of history. Contagious diseases are one of the biggest factors in human history. They're often hugely understated in comparison with human actions, but they're at least as big a factor and probably more important. For example, history would have turned out quite differently if contagious diseases hadn't killed a very large majority of the people in America or if the Roman empire reformed in the 6th century (which it was doing until a plague hit).

Whooping cough deaths are on the rise. A preventable disease with a strong potential to become a pandemic and just one of many. We're not talking about trivial things here. The immense success of mass vaccination has made it easy to be complacent now that we don't have to worry about epidemics and expect some of our children to die because that's what happens. It's natural for ~40% of people to die before reaching adulthood. Mass vaccination is a very big part of the reason why that's no longer the case in most parts of the world.

Courting a 40% childhood death rate is not caution.

 

[Sankari]

Polio is spread through infected poop. The route of transmission is the fecal-oral route lmao. Surely you don't think people are literally pooping through people's letterboxes lol.

Polio is also spread via saliva. This means it can be transmitted by sneezes, coughs, and even kisses.

100% of polio cases vanish just by making sure you're not eating or drinking pieces of ****.

Absolutely false.

Ever thought that the reason that "polio was rife" is simply because the people affected were just eating or drinking poop?

Poor hygiene undoubtedly contributes to the spread of polio. However, vaccination solves this problem:

 

[Avenged7Fold]

Oh please.

Quit your over obsession with poop. Your whole argument falls apart when you also think about how polio can transfer orally through saliva. It is not difficult for water sources and food sources to become infected either.

I use polio because it was famous for being rampant just 60 years ago but we can use TB instead?

TB is highly infectious and transmitted through air. We have seen huge reductions of cases in the west due to vaccines.

The fact is that these vaccines help massively in lowering the fatalities and reducing the spread of these diseases thanks to herd immunisation. This has been proven countless times on the thread.

I picked apart your post earlier asim if your going to post your standard 'Oh please' replies, you might as well save it, i regularly witness you post them on a daily basis on GD and id rather not take part in one of your regular meltdowns.

 

[Angilion]

Well, from just reading an NHS site alone they state that ''most side-effects of vaccines are mild''.

That statement alone would raise a few concerns for me, nothing to do with anything 'conspiracy'.

Most side effects of eating spicy foods are mild...does that raise a few concerns for you?

How about aspirin? Paracetomol? Water? They all can have side effects...as can anything that has any effect.

You spoke about medical organisations lying for some unspecified purpose. The idea that vaccination is more risky than not vaccination is flat out a conspiracy belief and a particularly implausible one since it requires global lying on an unprecendented scale.