If it can happen in people's homes, it's not really a stretch to assume that it can happen in a school.
Not for self defence, and not as a concealed carry.
Colorado to arm teachers in classrooms
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If it can happen in people's homes, it's not really a stretch to assume that it can happen in a school.
Not for self defence, and not as a concealed carry.
I didn't claim otherwise... point is it depends how these are stored. Yes the volunteers will have concealed carry licenses already - this doesn't necessarily imply that they'll be carrying the firearms as a matter of course - the point seems to simply have some staff members trained to deal with an emergency. Whether that is wise in itself is a different question but if that is implemented by having some firearms stored securely and ready to use then the objection I'm highlighting isn't really very valid and as pointed out we've got firearms and ammunition stored securely in plenty of UK schools too.
And what has that to do with who is appointed to do assessments for Concealed Carry permits? Are you under the impression that the FBI delegate their Concealed Carry permit decisions to random weapons conventions? Also, yes - you can "literally" buy a semi-auto rifle at a weapons convention. Guess what - I can "literally" buy bread in a bakers, too.
Queue missing the point comment about not being able to kill someone with a loaf of bread in 3...2...1...
Actually, we're not "literally" talking about such a country. We're figuratively talking about such a country because we're typing. Well, I am. You may be speaking the words out a loud as you type, for all I know. I point this out because you literally use literally, like, literally a lot.
Also, it was a joke. I'm not very good at them but I was trying for the sake of the thread. I know that the USA has culture. Hell, even yoghurt has culture!
I doubt it. And give reasons for my opinion.
Well, we're not talking about "guns everywhere" so that's alright. Secondly, it's not so very easy as you presume. Gun ownership rates between different countries do not correlate with homicide rates in any consistent fashion and even within the USA gun ownership rates do not rise or fall with homicide rates. It's a complex field and therefore it is not "very easy" to argue either case - for or against.
Various articles state that those trained will then be permitted to bring firearms into school premises under concealed carry laws, and to me that's where the concern is. A gun in a locked safe in an office is rather different to one being carried on premises, but then how useful is the former going to be in school shooting?
Got a source or some sort of data for this? Genuinely curious to know how many schools in this country actually have firearms on premises and as part of the curriculum.
that is the point - it is very different, it isn't particularly practical for a teacher to be constantly carrying all day... how useful is either going to be tbh... point is perhaps that in a rural location police response could be quite slow - whether it is wise for the teachers to intervene is a different matter to what I was commenting on re: the simple presence of the weapons
no worries - any school with a CCF (200 private schools and 60 state schools it seems) will likely have them on premises and/or any school with a shooting team/club (which is probably mostly schools that also have a CCF)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Cadet_Force
Wikipedia said:
not exactly uncommon at these 260 schools for older pupils to be leading a classroom full of younger pupils and training them to use a semi automatic rifle, nor is it uncommon for them to give coach younger kids firing .22 rifles on the school's indoor firing range (obviously live firing is supervised by teachers), or with the 5.56 mm rifles on weekends or at annual camp on an outdoor military range.
Point is that having weapons and ammunition stored in schools, in itself, isn't necessarily an issue - some British schools have had weapons and ammunition on school grounds since the Boer war. It is the other issues like is it actually wise for a teacher to have a go in the case of a shooting rather than just getting everyone to run/hide/evacuate the school and provide first aid where necessary.
edit - just did a quick google image search - here is a pic found online from the 80s - seems they even had access to GPMG's back then:
Yes, we are. We're talking about introducing firearms for defensive purposes into one of the few environments left in the US which doesn't have them. There are already guns almost everywhere, albeit with varying degrees state-by-state. Having firearms on school premises puts a tremendous onus on those who have undertaken the 3-day training course to react and respond to a threat. They're not likely to be professionals, they realistically don't stand much of a chance of achieving much in the heat of the moment.
You may want to edit your earlier post then, because you suggested it was entirely logical with no counter-argument just a moment ago.
Guns are now the third leading cause of death for American children.
I don't know about you but I certainly had teachers who I wouldn't trust with a gun.
I don't know about you but I certainly had teachers who I wouldn't trust with a gun.
A "Concealed Carry" permit does not mean that the permit holder will or must carry that gun around in a holster, concealed. I would expect (and the people in charge of handing out these licences will expect) that normally a gun is securely stored. Firearms training is very insistent about securing your guns securely. I can direct you to the NRA advice on the subject if you like. Not only would a gun be expected to be locked away, but often you'll find it even has a trigger lock on it. (guns are often sold with these by default). A trigger lock is essentially a padlock that stops the trigger being pulled, though they look a bit smarter aesthetically.
As to how useful it would be in a school shooting if it's locked up? Well, better locked up and taking two minutes to retrieve and prep than to be gotten hold of by a pupil. This isn't the Wild West nor a question of who is the fastest draw. The most likely scenario would be hearing gun fire elsewhere in the school or being informed an attack was happening, and gathering the kids somewhere safe and a teacher arming themself to try and guard them. Or worst case scenario knowing children were in danger elsewhere and approaching the location to try and rescue them. If you're picturing a scenario where a child pulls out a gun in a classroom and the teacher at the front of the class tries to shoot them down before they're shot themself, then that's already a scenario where the teacher has probably lost.
You're assuming 3 days training is the start and end of their learning. You're assuming no prior experience of firearms from the teachers who choose to have a firearm at school. It's not that a school is dangerous, it's that all schools are a potential target for mass shootings, especially in America. It's not practical to have armed guards 24/7, when teachers can probably fill that role, how much training do you think most security carrying fire arms have? Shooting a gun doesn't require someone to be a member of the SAS, you'll note a lot of mass shootings are done by people with no formal training.
Not to be flippant, but you're building imaginary scenarios tailored to supporting your views. I'll list three ways you've done so that are contradicted by posts already made:
- You are focusing on the three day assessment and ignoring what has been written that there are already substantial controls on getting such a permit and that the three day assessment is an additional approval process on top of existing ones. It is incorrect and misleading to present things as you do above as if any random person is taking a three day course and then walking around with a holstered gun all day.
- You state they are "not likely to be professionals" when actually, America has a lot of ex-military and ex-police and one of the examples given in the Colorado Concealed Carry of someone who has demonstrated the required expertise is someone who is ex-military or ex-police. Additionally, they must be approved by the school itself. The school, one would reasonably imagine, is not going to invite Joe Random to carry a gun in the school but the bill does propose allowing them to invite Joe Honourable Discharge from the army to do so if the school wishes to.
- You arbitrarily declare "they realistically don't stand much of a chance of achieving much in the heat of the moment". What moment and why? An experienced firearms user does not stand a chance against, to pick a very apposite example, the pupils who walked into Columbine High (in Colorado) and started shooting people randomly? Why is the experienced firearms user "not standing much of a chance"? What qualifies you to make such a wide sweeping statement in this discussion?
I may, but I don't. I have supported my arguments in this thread. Possibly better than anyone save Dowie. A poster who may disagree with me (or not) but either way who is doing what you are failing to - supporting their points and presenting cogent argument. Whereas you are arguing by assertion. Repeatedly.
And what has that to do with who is appointed to do assessments for Concealed Carry permits? Are you under the impression that the FBI delegate their Concealed Carry permit decisions to random weapons conventions? Also, yes - you can "literally" buy a semi-auto rifle at a weapons convention. Guess what - I can "literally" buy bread in a bakers, too.
Queue missing the point comment about not being able to kill someone with a loaf of bread in 3...2...1...
Actually, we're not "literally" talking about such a country. We're figuratively talking about such a country because we're typing. Well, I am. You may be speaking the words out a loud as you type, for all I know. I point this out because you literally use literally, like, literally a lot.
Also, it was a joke. I'm not very good at them but I was trying for the sake of the thread. I know that the USA has culture. Hell, even yoghurt has culture!
Well the US shouldn't arming more people, it should be trying to get at least to the level of European states on gun ownership and everyone should be looking to Japan for a successful cultural antipathy to guns.
I realise it's difficult because of the Arms manufacturers and the silly right to bear arms, but come on.
I find that article a little disingenuous. It opens with three handpicked tragic accidents but of firearm deaths with children 6% are such accidents and 94% are not. The accidents are too many and that is why so much emphasis is put on gun safety but articles that try to focus on emotive anecdotes to place emphasis where it would not naturally fall bother me. Suicides are the greatest proportion of child deaths by gun and US suicide rates amongst children are not markedly different to comparable countries. The USA has a lower suicide rate than Sweden and is just ahead of France. They're quite a bit worse than us but we're pretty good. Even Germany is worse than us. I don't know what the variation is but plainly it's not guns as it doesn't correlate. Meaning the statistics in that article are bumped up massively by guns being the suicide method of choice in the USA but not that guns are the determining factor. In any case, it is a very broad statistic and not really applicable to select, approved teachers taking on a secondary role of providing physical security for the school.
I certainly do not wish to trivialise the accidental deaths of children from firearms. That is absolutely not what I am doing. But for comparison in the year that article reports on (2014) more children died through drowning. And not just in rivers and open waters - the most common place for a child to drown was a swimming pool. I'm not saying your argument is wrong, I'm saying that it is an even stronger argument for banning swimming. So if one is inclined to accept your reasoning, one should be even more determined to prevent swimming. And if one is inclined to retort something about increasing the safety of swimming pools, I'll politely mention some of the efforts to increase gun safety.
In short, that article has an agenda.
I have seen that. A long time ago. This topic more made me think of the end of Doctor Who where the schoolboys are shooting at the advancing scarecrows. Different stories, somewhat.
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Well you say that now. When Japan is occupied by China, you may feel differently.
And why should the US be trying to achieve the gun ownership levels of European states? Switzerland has the highest proportion of its citizens that own guns in the world, btw. European state. And yes, it's voluntary - they had a referendum on whether to stop storing guns in everybody's homes and the population voted to continue to do so.The arms manufacturers don't control the population or force people to buy weapons. And the ability for a populace to defend itself against a tyranny is not silly, imo. But you're trying to drag things off-topic. None of what you listed has any applicability to this specific bill which wont increase gun ownership by a single person. By definition. Everyone it covers is already a licenced gun owner.
I have seen that. A long time ago. This topic more made me think of the end of Doctor Who where the schoolboys are shooting at the advancing scarecrows. Different stories, somewhat.
yup, definitely different stories
yup, definitely different stories
Still, it does raise the valid point of how a school is to defend itself against attacking scarecrow monsters without guns on premises.
Well you say that now. When Japan is occupied by China, you may feel differently.
The arms manufacturers don't control the population or force people to buy weapons. And the ability for a populace to defend itself against a tyranny is not silly, imo. But you're trying to drag things off-topic. None of what you listed has any applicability to this specific bill which wont increase gun ownership by a single person. By definition. Everyone it covers is already a licenced gun owner.
Considering it's attempting to place weapons into another environment, it is indeed not off-topic, this is not SC either. Regardless i clearly mean the average European state, and the average European state isnt a tyranny either.
