Barcelona Incident

do_ron_ron said:
The problem is that ISIS is just the next reincarnation of these groups. You defeat one and the survivors and the next lot pop up and the cycle continues until you come to a political solution of the root causes. N. Ireland and the IRA should be an obvious example to the people especially in this country but let's forget what history has taught us and repeat the same mistakes over and over and over .....
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It isn't such an obvious example, as they had goals and thoughts, and eventually the will of the people gave out, and people wanted peace.
As John Hume stated, 'You don't have to live with it'
Everyone was sick of it, wanted better, wanted progress, we'd had a generation of decent education by then, now we've had two.

With this fundamentalism, there is no reason, there is no deflection or interpretation, as there is the book, the words in the book.
they cannot be changed or altered.
People quote the bible, and say how awful it is, and it doesn't matter, as frankly, no one reads and enforces such guff anymore, bar westbro and some American ***** when they kill abortion doctors.

Hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, still follow the directives in the other book. That's hard to stop, when the book forbids education, and forbids any change.
 
dowie said:
Well in the cases where a religion is part of the reason for an attack you can yes, I don't see the issue per say, religion is partly to blame. It is just an ideology, various ideologies can be part of the motivation to attack people and they're all open to blame/criticism whether they include a deity or not.
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It is a warped version of the religion. Used on the gullible. After all if it was to get into paradise why are the people sending them off not the first to blow themselves up?

Likewise would you put forth the same argument re: Nazis/the far right re: the vehicle incident the other day - that we shouldn't blame far right politics because other Nazi protestors didn't kill people? I think it would be rather dubious to try and do so though.
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I never mentioned Nazis/far right. You are looking at someone else's post.

Even people like Nigel Farage were getting flack on twitter - which is kind of equivalent to some random muslim leader with nothing to do with Islamism getting flack after condemning an Islamist attack.
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What has this to do with anything?

You need to distinguish between people and the ideology, sure we shouldn't blame random muslims for this just as we shouldn't direct random anger at right wing politicians or even the actual nazi protestors re: the US attack. However to try and pretend that this attack has nothing to do with Islam would be akin to trying to pretend that the recent US attack had nothing to do with the far right... it is laughably silly to try and do that.
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Nothing to do with Islam as such, just some people using religion to further their political aims.
 
dowie said:
Well in the cases where a religion is part of the reason for an attack you can yes, I don't see the issue per say, religion is partly to blame. It is just an ideology, various ideologies can be part of the motivation to attack people and they're all open to blame/criticism whether they include a deity or not.

Likewise would you put forth the same argument re: Nazis/the far right re: the vehicle incident the other day - that we shouldn't blame far right politics because other Nazi protestors didn't kill people? I think it would be rather dubious to try and do so though.

Even people like Nigel Farage were getting flack on twitter - which is kind of equivalent to some random muslim leader with nothing to do with Islamism getting flack after condemning an Islamist attack.

You need to distinguish between people and the ideology, sure we shouldn't blame random muslims for this just as we shouldn't direct random anger at right wing politicians or even the actual nazi protestors re: the US attack. However to try and pretend that this attack has nothing to do with Islam would be akin to trying to pretend that the recent US attack had nothing to do with the far right... it is laughably silly to try and do that.
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You've put too narrow a spin on it.

The equivalent of the far right is Islamic extremists. I doubt many are condoning either of their actions.

The equivalent of Islam would be the "right" wing ideology.

Ergo if we want to criticize Islam for the actions of some extremists then we should also be criticizing right wing politics for the action of "their" extremists.

So if we need to sit down and have a frank discussion about Islam, then we should also be sitting down and having a frank discussion about right wing politics and why it creates so much violence and murder.
 
Amp34 said:
You've put too narrow a spin on it.

The equivalent of the far right is Islamic extremists. I doubt many are condoning either of their actions.

The equivalent of Islam would be the "right" wing ideology.

Ergo if we want to criticize Islam for the actions of some extremists then we should also be criticizing right wing politics for the action of "their" extremists.
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not necessarily - they're not direct equivalents anyway but sufficient for a comparison - Farage isn't 'far right' for example. But if you like then yes there are examples of rightwing politics that you can associate - anti foreign immigration etc.. the far right could be said to fall under a subset of this just as Islamism can fall under a subset of Islam (this is why I included Farage as an example, he's merely right wing rather than far right and criticism of him as being to blame for a far right attack is like criticism of an ordinary muslim cleric for an Islamist attack). On the other hand 'right wing' as in a desire for a small state/low taxation has nothing to do with the far right, their politics are not a subset or an extreme version of that. It kind of depends on the scope of 'right wing' as to whether the comparison works.
 
Hikari Kisugi said:
It isn't such an obvious example, as they had goals and thoughts, and eventually the will of the people gave out, and people wanted peace.
As John Hume stated, 'You don't have to live with it'
Everyone was sick of it, wanted better, wanted progress, we'd had a generation of decent education by then, now we've had two.

With this fundamentalism, there is no reason, there is no deflection or interpretation, as there is the book, the words in the book.
they cannot be changed or altered.
People quote the bible, and say how awful it is, and it doesn't matter, as frankly, no one reads and enforces such guff anymore, bar westbro and some American ***** when they kill abortion doctors.

Hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, still follow the directives in the other book. That's hard to stop, when the book forbids education, and forbids any change.
Click to expand...

It is a good example because when you strip out the verbiage, spin etc there is a political problem. Does not matter where it is.

I am always amused at the use of the word fundamentalist because what the Christians forget is that Jesus was a fundamentalist, wanted to get back to a purer form of Judaism. A lot of Americans read the bible and the last load of Presidents have been elected by the bible belt folks. How come there are Muslim doctors, dentist, pilots etc,etc,etc if it forbids education.
 
do_ron_ron said:
It is a warped version of the religion.
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That's a poor argument, it isn't like there is a verifiably 'correct' version of Islam - in fact that argument ironically is the same one jihadists in ISIS etc.. use to kill other muslims, the justification is that they're not real muslims because they (unlike ISIS) are the ones following the warped version of the religion.

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I never mentioned Nazis/far right. You are looking at someone else's post.
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Nope I'm not looking at someone else's post, I was making a comparison.

Nothing to do with Islam as such, just some people using religion to further their political aims.
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Which have rather a lot to do with Islam... you're just taking an apologist stance on the issue and sticking your head in the sand...
 
dowie said:
That's a poor argument, it isn't like there is a verifiably 'correct' version of Islam - in fact that argument ironically is the same one jihadists in ISIS etc.. use to kill other muslims, the justification is that they're not real muslims because they (unlike ISIS) are the ones following the warped version of the religion.

QGgaFw0.png




Nope I'm not looking at someone else's post, I was making a comparison.



Which have rather a lot to do with Islam... you're just taking an apologist stance on the issue and sticking your head in the sand...
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Did you just post a depiction of Mohammed?
 
do_ron_ron said:
It is a good example because when you strip out the verbiage, spin etc there is a political problem. Does not matter where it is.

I am always amused at the use of the word fundamentalist because what the Christians forget is that Jesus was a fundamentalist, wanted to get back to a purer form of Judaism. A lot of Americans read the bible and the last load of Presidents have been elected by the bible belt folks. How come there are Muslim doctors, dentist, pilots etc,etc,etc if it forbids education.
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The issue is, you can't negotiate with ISIS.
You won't find any female trained, educated or otherwise within the enclaves supported by Wahhabism ISIS.
 
h4rm0ny said:
Did you just post a depiction of Mohammed?
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nope, the creator of those cartoons is quite clear that the 'Mo' featured in them is in fact a body double :)

anyway it was posted to highlight a point in reply to an argument that had been put forth and not just for the 'lulz'
 
..this thread.

RIP to the victims. Just heartbreaking to think people are just trying to get on with their day / enjoy a holiday and they arent coming home.
 
Schlong&Stable said:
If you think religion is the issue, you need to take a step back and really get some context about the nature of humanity.
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Palpable nonsense if over 1.8 million (edit: should have course read 1.8 BILLION) people globally followed the Jain religion would we see more, less or about the same about of global terror and violence??

I think you know the answer. The fundamentals of a religion MATTER.
 
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do_ron_ron said:
The problem is that ISIS is just the next reincarnation of these groups. You defeat one and the survivors and the next lot pop up and the cycle continues until you come to a political solution of the root causes. N. Ireland and the IRA should be an obvious example to the people especially in this country but let's forget what history has taught us and repeat the same mistakes over and over and over .....
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no offence but there isn't a political solution in N.Ireland, and while there isn't as many bombs and shooting as before. there is as much if not more mistrust of each other side, if anything if you want to use N.Ireland as an example, use it as an example of when peace came around, we missed it up
 
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