Anyone Voting in the Catalan Referendum?

[dowie]

A declaration is illegal, i already said if they can do it legally then do the legal route. The last resort is civil war, obviously.

The current approach is a dead end, you know you just can’t declare independence, that’s not how it works.

there isn't a legal route within Spanish law, why can't they just declare independence? Why isn't that how it works? I mean if you're OK with them having a civil war then surely that involves a declaration of independence too no?

Do you think Ireland shouldn't legally exist if the UK decided it was illegal/not allowed and carried on suppressing the rebellion?

 

[Raymond Lin]

there isn't a legal route within Spanish law, why can't they just declare independence? Why isn't that how it works? I mean if you're OK with them having a civil war then surely that involves a declaration of independence too no?

I forgot the detail but what stuck in my mine from constitutional law is this point of independence, a region just can’t declare it, they HAVE to work through the country and region they are in, through their legal means in order to gain independence.

Screaming from the roof top saying you are free, which is what Catalan is doing, is legally meaningless and no one will recognise it.

I can dig out my books for you if you like.

 

[dowie]

I forgot the detail but what stuck in my mine from constitutional law is this point of independence, a region just can’t declare it, they HAVE to work through the country and region they are in, through their legal means in order to gain independence.

Screaming from the roof top saying you are free, which is what Catalan is doing, is legally meaningless and no one will recognise it.

I can dig out my books for you if you like.

Would that explain how having a civil war and declaring independence is OK but declaring independence without a civil war supposedly isn't in your opinion?

edit - sorry misread, obviously you're not advocating that a civil war would be OK.

I would however argue that it is preferable to go down this approach of steadily escalating things, I wouldn't necessarily see this as a dead end, Spain isn't some brutal dictatorship and if enough of the population is behind it in Catalonia then it is potentially feasible that they could have a relatively bloodless attempt at independence

 

[Jokester]

I'm pretty sure civil war would be fairly illegal as well. Dowie is right, they've exhausted the legal route. It now comes down to how much do they really want independence.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Would that explain how having a civil war and declaring independence is OK but declaring independence without a civil war supposedly isn't in your opinion?

There are plenty of countries that have obtained independence via various means, they don't all start off legally and it is a bit of a flawed point to dwell on given there isn't a legal choice available to them.

Or are you stating that your civil war option would be legal somehow? Because that is the bit that seems inconsistent - why advocate for civil war on one hand but then criticise a simple declaration on the other hand for being illegal?

I never said civil war is okay but civil war is an option, just like launching nuclear weapons….is it an option? yes. Will it happen? No. Do I want it to happen? Hell no.

Let's put it this way, you just can say "I want a divorce", you got to do it legally. Catalonia lost the last civil war the fought, this is the consequences, and they have to live with the consequences. You can't just walk away from what they signed up to post-civil war, I don't know the history of that too well but i hazard a guess that there was a treaty of sort signed and being ruled by Madrid is a part of the deal that they signed up to. So they can't just walk away from it. So in a way, yes, suck it up because you lost.

 

[dowie]

I never said civil war is okay but civil war is an option, just like launching nuclear weapons….is it an option? yes. Will it happen? No. Do I want it to happen? Hell no.

Let's put it this way, you just can say "I want a divorce", you got to do it legally. Catalonia lost the last civil war the fought, this is the consequences, and they have to live with the consequences. You can't just walk away from what they signed up to post-civil war, I don't know the history of that too well but i hazard a guess that there was a treaty of sort signed and being ruled by Madrid is a part of the deal that they signed up to. So they can't just walk away from it. So in a way, yes, suck it up because you lost.

Why can't they?

I mean just saying 'because it is illegal' isn't a very good argument here IMO, especially as it has already been pointed out that there isn't a legal route for them.

Self determination is a pretty important thing in a democracy and if it takes something like this declaration to try and get some third party mediation involved then so be it. Personally that is what I'd like to see, a proper referendum being held on independence... but frankly if that isn't going to happen and they somehow end up breaking away unilaterally as a result of this then so be it. Obviously they could also end up being suppressed but I don't think that will put the problem away for good.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Why can't they?

I mean just saying 'because it is illegal' isn't a very good argument here IMO, especially as it has already been pointed out that there isn't a legal route for them.

They can say they are independence as much as they like, no one else will recognise it.

 

[dowie]

They can say they are independence as much as they like, no one else will recognise it.

maybe not at the moment, that all depends how things play out going forwards, if groups of people all just waited for permission to be legally granted independence then a whole bunch of countries around the world wouldn't exist today... and if a country such as Spain doesn't want to offer a legal route to it then they're just as much to blame

 

[Zethor]

Why can't they?

I mean just saying 'because it is illegal' isn't a very good argument here IMO, especially as it has already been pointed out that there isn't a legal route for them.

Self determination is a pretty important thing in a democracy and if it takes something like this declaration to try and get some third party mediation involved then so be it. Personally that is what I'd like to see, a proper referendum being held on independence... but frankly if that isn't going to happen and they somehow end up breaking away unilaterally as a result of this then so be it. Obviously they could also end up being suppressed but I don't think that will put the problem away for good.

Why don't you try to raise a border fence around your property and declare independence?

 

[Woden]

Why don't you try to raise a border fence around your property and declare independence?

Not readily the same is it?

 

[dowie]

Why don't you try to raise a border fence around your property and declare independence?

because that would be really silly...

 

[Raymond Lin]

maybe not at the moment, that all depends how things play out going forwards, if groups of people all just waited for permission to be legally granted independence then a whole bunch of countries around the world wouldn't exist today... and if a country such as Spain doesn't want to offer a legal route to it then they're just as much to blame

They signed up to the rule of Madrid, they agreed to it. So afterwards they need to work within the legal framework of something they sign up to. That is what civilised honourable people do, they live by their words. If not, then they can pick up guns and start a new civil war.

So having signed up and agreed to be ruled by Spain, do as you agreed. It's simple as that. If they didn't want to, then they shouldn't have waved the white flag and surrendered in the first place. You can't disagree just because some time has passed, there was no time limit on the Spain rule.

Am I being too simplistic in my view?

 

[chrismscotland]

They signed up to the rule of Madrid, they agreed to it.

Isn't that a bit like telling Brexiteer's that they signed up to join the EU and so should just deal with it?

The thing I find most galling is that everyone seems to think a majority in Catalonia was against independence yet despite that the Spanish still refused to allow a legal referendum, if they were so confident it wasn't the will of the Catalonian people they would have had the balls to let them vote.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Isn't that a bit like telling Brexiteer's that they signed up to join the EU and so should just deal with it?

No, as the law of the EU clearly states a way for members to leave, and the UK worked within that legal frame work that they signed up to.

 

[dowie]

They signed up to the rule of Madrid, they agreed to it. So afterwards they need to work within the framework of something they sign up to. That is what civilised honourable people do, they live by their words. If not, then they can pick up guns and start a new civil war.

No 'they' didn't per say, some people a couple of generations ago did in the immediate aftermath of a transition from facist rule...

So having signed up and agreed to be ruled by Spain, do as you agreed. It's simple as that. If they didn't want to, then they shouldn't have waved the white flag in the last civil war.

Am I being too simplistic in my view?

I think so, you seem to be treating this constitution as though it is some divine immutable set of rules that because the representatives of some people at some point signed up to then we can forget about their descendant's wishes to democratically decide their own future, exercise self determination. I think self determination is important and something we ought to recognise when a clearly defined historical region/group of people want to exercise it. I'd view a law/constitution that prohibits it in the same way I'd view an unfair contract that seeks to override someone's inherent rights.

I certainly think the view you've again espoused above that they can either agree or can pick up guns and start a civil war as very simplistic... why not something in between like they have done?

I mean you're again talking about legality and yet drop in that position again about having a civil war which is surely also rather illegal.

 

[Slam62]

Hmm so if the people of Catalonia all want independence, they can't have it because the democratic government of Spain says no.

 

[Raymond Lin]

No 'they' didn't per say, some people a couple of generations ago did in the immediate aftermath of a transition from facist rule...



I think so, you seem to be treating this constitution as though it is some divine immutable set of rules that because the representatives of some people at some point signed up to then we can forget about their descendant's wishes to democratically decide their own future, exercise self determination. I think self determination is important and something we ought to recognise when a clearly defined historical region/group of people want to exercise it. I'd view a law/constitution that prohibits it in the same way I'd view an unfair contract that seeks to override someone's inherent rights.

I certainly think the view you've again espoused above that they can either agree or can pick up gins and start a civil war is very simplistic... why not something in between like they have done?

I mean you're again talking about legality and yet drop in that position again about having a civil war which is surely also rather illegal.

The "something between" I am thinking of is to work politically to change the Spanish constitution, the government, the law in Spain, in a way that Spain itself would make the declaration of Catalan be legal.

By just declaring "I am now independent!!!" from a country you are a part of, it's law that do not allow that, just isn't legal. It feels to me losers can't take losing in a board game so they tip everything over. What they need to do is win the game by changing the rules, the constitution isn't set in stone. If they say Catalan do hold that much political and economical leverage then they need to use that leverage to their advantage within the framework of the law they are a part of.

That's how you work "the between".

p.s. I find it funny how you cut out my sentence "you can't just ignore it because some time has passed". you have a rebuttal to that ?

 

[chrismscotland]

Hmm so if the people of Catalonia all want independence, they can't have it because the democratic government of Spain says no.

That seems to be the size of it yeah.....

 

[Zethor]

because that would be really silly...

Yes it is silly, instead of one person you have a group of millions who suddenly want independence despite Catalonia being a part of Spain/Aragon for hundreds of years.

The thing I find most galling is that everyone seems to think a majority in Catalonia was against independence yet despite that the Spanish still refused to allow a legal referendum, if they were so confident it wasn't the will of the Catalonian people they would have had the balls to let them vote.

The "Spanish", by which I assume you mean the current Govt/Parliament, did not refuse anything. The highest court in Spain did and the last time I've checked, the decisions judges make are independent, they don't take orders from the legislative or executive branches.

So they should do what the Spanish say because they’re under that framework? What about How Spain signed up to the UN charter, and then the UN’s primary legal organ gave an opinion which says it’s fine for a region to declare independence?

They should change the Spanish Constitution in such a way that it allows secession.

 

[dowie]

The "something between" I am thinking of is to work politically to change the Spanish constitutional, the government, the law in Spain, in a way that Spain itself would make the declaration of Catalan be legal.

I believe that has already been tried and got them nowhere.

By just declaring "I am now independent!!!" from a country you are a part of, it's law that do not allow that, just isn't legal. It feels to me losers can't take losing in a board game so they tip everything over. What they need to do is win the game by changing the rules, the constitution isn't set in stone. If they say Catalan do hold that much political and economical leverage then they need to use that leverage to their advantage within the framework of the law they are a part of.

That's how you work "the between".

of course it isn't legal, again they don't have a legal route... ergo there isn't much choice left

p.s. I find it funny how you cut out my sentence "you can't just ignore it because some time has passed". you have a rebuttal to that ?

not intentionally, maybe you edited your post after I'd pressed the quote button to start my reply?

I don't see it as being relevant, if anything the idea that they're somehow duty bound to never be able to exercise self determination because of something signed a couple of generations ago is rather dubious.

Yes it is silly, instead of one person you have a group of millions who suddenly want independence despite Catalonia being a part of Spain/Aragon for hundreds of years.

but that isn't silly, an individual declaring his house to be independent is silly, an autonomous region with its own language, culture, parliament which is perfectly feasible to operate independently as a nation state is rather different!