Anyone Voting in the Catalan Referendum?

Malt_Vinegar said:
It's raises an interesting point though. If a previous generations government agree to something, how far down the line is it "acceptable" for another generation to claim separation from that original decision?
I am deliberately not referencing the situation in Spain to make a hypothetical point.
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Perpetuity.
 
Emm,technically just under 39% of all Catalonians actually voted for independence,and even that number can't be reliably verified as there was no international observers to make sure there was no voting irregularities.
Also apparently of the 135 members of the Catalonian parliament,65 either voted against or abstained and made statements like this:

Carlos Carrizosa, a Catalan lawmaker with Ciudadanos, said:rubbish“By putting this monstrosity of a secession bill into practice you destroy everything. Today is a sad, dramatic day for Catalonia . . . a coup against our democracy.”
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I was trying to actually play the devils advocate and was reading about Catalonians who were not supportive of independence and you had people saying the pro-independence people were drowning out their voices,and pro-independence people basically saying they "had to deal with it!".

Everyone seems to instantly thinking just because the pro-independence crowd are making the biggest noise on social media,that all the Catalonians are pro-independence. If nearly half your own parliament,and 61% of the public have not even voted,and the votes which were collected could not be verified,what is the point of the vote?? I would hate to imagine if you were a person who wanted to stay as part of Spain,trying to vote in a place manned by pro-independence people?? What would be the point?? You might as well not bother,TBH!!

This is why any vote needs to be properly done,and if people feel the Spanish laws are wrong,they should start a grassroots political movement to change it.

Also,the EU can't do much - if they supported an independence vote by Catalonia which was not verified internationally,they by extension would be supporting the Russian independence vote in Crimea and then by extension,the breakaway regions in Ukraine in that country. None of these were done with international observers either.
 
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CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
This is why any vote needs to be properly done,and if people feel the Spanish laws are wrong,they should start a grassroots political movement to change it.
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1. Spain will never give Catalonia a legal referendum on independence. They have stated time and again they will not let it happen, period.
2. Catalonians will never be able to change Spanish national law wrt this, because pretty much all non-Catalonian Spanish want to keep Catalonia, and are opposed to independence.

In practice, it's like saying that the Scots should have campaigned to get a legal referendum, in a hypothetical UK where the UK govt had flat out said "not happening", and the majority of the English/Welsh population were opposed to Scottish independence.
 
FoxEye said:
1. Spain will never give Catalonia a legal referendum on independence. They have stated time and again they will not let it happen, period.
2. Catalonians will never be able to change Spanish national law wrt this, because pretty much all non-Catalonian Spanish want to keep Catalonia, and are opposed to independence.

In practice, it's like saying that the Scots should have campaigned to get a legal referendum, in a hypothetical UK where the UK govt had flat out said "not happening", and the majority of the English/Welsh population were opposed to Scottish independence.
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The Scots took over a century to get their vote and they have been a country for centuries which joined a union. Despite this they didn't try to hold an independence vote decades ago,without getting the support of the central government and they are a country.

They waited that long for their chance to vote,and guess what despite all the talk,people decided to stay. So was the independence movement as strong as many thought?? I dunno.

People seem to conflate that all catalonians want independence when even half their parliament decided to abstain,and more importantly previous informal votes have shown pro-unity tending to be more favoured.

This has been all engineered on purpose - the courts said no,the pro-independence lot did it anyway,and the local police ignored the courts,and then when the national police tried to enforce it,they obstructed them and crap happens.Why?? It was all engineered so they could gain sympathy from the world for their cause. This is classic tactics which have been used for 100s of years.

Also, remember when we go and support other movements abroad via military action,when people get shown emotive images on social media and "we need to act". Then we are shocked when the country goes to **** as apparently not everyone hated the old government.Remember,just because one side shouts the most,don't ever think they are the only side in any of these situations. Libya is a good example of a situation where we ignored the fact the people we supported would never be accepted by parts of the country.

Nobody is asking what do the Catalonians who don't support independence say?? No because they are not cool,and it complicates the narrative.Apparently nowadays the louder a group shouts the greater the legitimacy it has.

Moreover,Catalonia,AFAIK,has not been a proper country since the 1500s,so this is almost like London deciding they are holding a non verifiable referendum to leave the country since they hate Brexit,and the government says you must be joking,and then they do it anyway. No country would support that,not even this country. The excuse of "its taking too long" means nothing,otherwise it would mean anyone could make that excuse and make up rules when they want.

Why do you think so many governments are not backing this?? I mean I will just laugh if Sturgeon gets bored at waiting another 10 years for another referendum,and the nationalists in Scotland,decided to make up their own referendum and clear off anyway.

I am sure many here would be totally OK,with such a non-verifiable vote.

Anyway,since Spain is not Blighty I will leave it at that - we probably have more important things to sort out TBH!
 
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Malt_Vinegar said:
It's raises an interesting point though. If a previous generations government agree to something, how far down the line is it "acceptable" for another generation to claim separation from that original decision?
I am deliberately not referencing the situation in Spain to make a hypothetical point.
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I think an important factor is what that 'thing' was... seemingly going by some poster's logic even if that thing was agreeing to slavery or forgoing their right to democratic elections or suppressing freedom of speech we might well still get some cries that it can't be changed unilaterally because "It's the law" etc..

Frankly I think when the law conflicts with what ought to be a basic human right then that's a problem - self determination is an important freedom for people to be allowed within a democracy IMO and therefore I do have a bit of an issue with people's arguments that merely extend as far as simply declaring "It's illegal" and then leaving it at that. The law is suppressing a pretty important freedom and the Catalonians have been left with no legal means by which to exercise self determination.
 
CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
This is why any vote needs to be properly done,and if people feel the Spanish laws are wrong,they should start a grassroots political movement to change it.
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Haha, welcome to the 1990's...

Seriously it was tried, Spain are simply not interested in discussing it. To put it in perspective they are not just acting like a fascist dictatorship, they are acting WORSE than Soviet Russia (even when the USSR knew that allowing Ukraine to hold a referendum on seceding would result in it passing and most likely resulting in the breakup of the USSR they still allowed it and honored the result).


CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
Moreover,Catalonia,AFAIK,has not been a proper country since the 1500s,so this is almost like London deciding they are holding a non verifiable referendum to leave the country since they hate Brexit,and the government says you must be joking,and then they do it anyway. No country would support that,not even this country.
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Actually a better analogy would be the people of Scotland electing a pro-independence government who run on a mandate of holding a referendum on independence, than do just that. Oh wait that exact thing actually happened and yes, this country did support that.


CAT-THE-FIFTH said:
Nobody is asking what do the Catalonians who don't support independence say??
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Prior to the referendum most asked said that they wanted to stay but that they sided with the Catalan government on holding the referendum because it was what Catalonia as a whole wanted and they wanted the right to have their say.
 
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D.P. said:
Why do certain posters keeping bringing the EU into this? that is a rhetorical question, we all know why certain people have such a perverse agenda.

The EU is keeping well out of this, it has nothing to do with them and the EU has no jurisdiction over the matter. Spain is free to leverage their sovereignty, something the knuckledraggers thought was so important during the Brexit mistake.
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This is another nightmare for the EU, a real big one, what with all the swings to the right, and now this on top of our taking our leave. Thankfully my predictions that a watered down "Brexit" would be irrelevant due to the effective break up of the EU itself seem to be coming to fruition. Cracks in the smug arrogance are appearing! :)
 
awaybreaktoday said:
I am holding a referendum for London to become independent from the UK tomorrow, as soon as vote is over i will declare London independence immediately, all are welcome to take part in the vote...
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Great idea, if that's what the people want, Be glad to see London gone, it's a dive. :p
 
McGray said:
Just, no.
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If I infer what you mean from your rather short post, then just, YES

The EU's most senior official warned that "more cracks" were emerging in the bloc on Friday after the Catalan parliament declared independence from Spain, plunging the country into political and economic turmoil.

Madrid swiftly responded to the vote by dissolving the Catalan parliament and dismissing Carles Puigdemont as president of Catalonia and his entire government.

Mariano Rajoy, the Spanish prime minister, announced that regional elections would be held in December and said the unprecedented act of imposing direct rule on the regional was needed to "recover normality".

The national police may be deployed to bring Catalonia under Madrid's control.

The shock decision to declare independence poses potentially the greatest threat to the EU's unity since Brexit, and is likely to fuel support for separatist movements in Ireland, Scotland and the Basque Country.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-demands-special-powers-could-remove-catalan/
 
awaybreaktoday said:
I am holding a referendum for London to become independent from the UK tomorrow, as soon as vote is over i will declare London independence immediately, all are welcome to take part in the vote...
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You are aware that the rest of the UK doesn't give a dead rats Butt about *akkin Landan right ?

In fact I've said elsewhere that we should create a new Capital somewhere more central. Perhaps Naseby for it's location and historical link ?
 
Looks like Puigdemont is calling for opposition to direct rule. Whether that means winning the next elections or civil disobediance we will have to see.

Still bemusing that a minority coalition government leader thinks that people will support him no matter what.

Next elections will just have new leaders who correctly follow the law (pro independence or otherwise).
 
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