Is it racist to say gun/knife crime in London is predominantly caused by a certain race?
- Thread starter Efour
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Yes. Though I suspect you don't actually mean caused by race. I mean.. how can the pigmentation of someone's skin cause crime?
Predominantly perpetrated by? Yes. Predominantly caused by? No.
My position is slightly different but would often be classed as the same. I don't think that all humans are one race. I think that race doesn't exist in humans in any meaningful sense, i.e. that no human is of any race, that the whole concept of race doesn't apply to humans.
Classifying people by trivial superficial similarities isn't meaningful in itself, but the idea of race is even worse than that. It's classifying people by obviously inaccurate descriptions of superficial similarities. The idea of race makes far less sense than, for example, the idea of phrenology. At least phrenology is based on accurate descriptions of superficial similarities. Classifying people by inaccurate descriptions of how much suntan they have is not realistic. It wouldn't be realistic if the classifications were based on accurate descriptions of how much suntan a person has, but the obvious inaccuracy makes it even less realistic.
Or you can look at the issue on a more fundamental level - genetics. Same result - a miniscule amount of similarity irrelevant to almost everything and dwarfed by individual variation. The genetic variation between "races" is so tiny that it's an entire order of magnitude smaller than the genetic variation between individuals in the same "race" despite the fact that genetic variation amongst the entire species is itself tiny. Humans have startlingly low genetic diversity, so low that the most likely explanation is that humanity was close to extinction recently and we're all descended from a small number of common ancestors. We're inbred. Species with less genetic diversity are generally on the endangered species list.
All that "race" can actually do is indirectly give a rough idea of the risk of a few medical problems, which might be relevant in diagnosis. For example, sickle cell anaemia is more likely in people with recent ancestors from some parts of Africa, so skin colour can be an indirect indicator of risk.
I think it's nowhere near enough to constitute a valid system of classification, i.e. that such a system of classification is not meaningful, not a real thing.
See Loki’s Wager.
There are infinite shades of blue but if you show me a rainbow I can still point out where it’s not blue, ask me where red ceases to be red and blue ceases to be blue? I can’t tell you. But red and blue do exist. Separately.
Do you think "white" people are less likely to get involved with drugs? If so, why? If not, how do you explain the fact that the demographics of the victims and the attackers doesn't match up with the demographics of the population in general?
I didn't argue that different levels of suntan don't exist.
I argued that different levels of suntan aren't a meaningful way of classifying people and that, in addition, race is even more unrealistic than that because it's based on inaccurate descriptions of levels of suntan.
It's not a case of me making a Loki's Wager fallacy. It's you making a strawman fallacy.
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When did I talk about skin colour? Now who’s making a straw man? The spectrum analogy is referring to the genetic spectrum of humans. Skin colour is such a laughably small part of it, but it’s prevelant because it’s so undeniable. And the evidence with skin cancer rates explains the why. The arrogant belief that humans are somehow special and that if you take any other species and separate them for thousands of years in different climates that they’ll obviously have different attributes but somehow this doesn’t apply to humans. It’s just insanity and frankly it’s mired by politics, specifically by a bunch of radicals in the late 19th, early 20th century who we are all too familiar with and took it way too far.
At some point people will start talking about it again but I doubt it will be in my lifetime. Hopefully they’ll have moderate discussion. The issue is you can’t highlight differences without extremist people creating strata and then we’re back to square one.
There is nothing racist about a statistic but racists are fond of dropping statistics stripped of context into a conversation in the hope that someone else will say what they are too afraid to. If challenged, they will always claim to have not implied anything racist.
As for the usual whinging about the PC police, the Met has been running Operation Trident for 20 years, which tackles serious violence in Afro-Caribbean communities. Most people accept that there is an issue that needs to be addressed but don't make the jump to 'It's cuz they r black' or 'Send them home'.
As for the usual whinging about the PC police, the Met has been running Operation Trident for 20 years, which tackles serious violence in Afro-Caribbean communities. Most people accept that there is an issue that needs to be addressed but don't make the jump to 'It's cuz they r black' or 'Send them home'.
This forum used to be infested with BNP supporters and is actually less overtly racist than it used to be.
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Oh, do behave yourself it's a matter worthy of discussion.
Soldato
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Bit melodramatic....
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In the future, we're going to have full prisons and as a consequence violent offenders on the street to look forward to, because people who subscribe to this "culture" are going to reproduce and pass on their life's "experience" to their kids. There is no tackling the problem with simple means such as debating it or trying to change their "culture", because a gang full of imbeciles can't be reasoned with and I wouldn't even want to waste any time or money trying to reason with them, so good luck to those who do. I wouldn't even take £1,000,000 per annum to work as a policeman in London. That might have to be their average wage if something doesn't change soon.
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No it statistics. I live in Wealdstone, Harrow and over the last 8 years we have had police shot at, 3 murders on on the high street at 6pm in daylight in front of my 7 year old nephew and two days ago I drove past the scene of a shooting of a 12 and 15 year old boy, I barely missed it. All somalian and afghani. The place is an absolute **** hole now, used to be lovely.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaJqXtziMDg
That road to the left is my road. I saw this happening. Absolutely disgusting what has happened to this place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaJqXtziMDg
That road to the left is my road. I saw this happening. Absolutely disgusting what has happened to this place.
Soldato
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Could you point out just what you find disgusting.?
Its a strange old world.. .
On one hand a certain group of people often like to talk about how certain things affect certain groups more than others ... Like 'x' group is stopped and searched by police more then 'y' group.
But yet if a discussion is had about how a certain identifiable (if fuzzily defined at the edges) group is apparently disproportionately involved in something widely viewed as detrimental to society (e.g Street crime) people, often from the former group, come out of the wood work to suggest variously that's even the discussion itself is racist and /or deplorable.
Fluphy meet om. Our local defender of minorities who can never do any wrong!
Well since now the definition of race is a shared "culture" not physical features.
"Black culture" is one that glorifies gang activity violence and drugs.
So if you say that it is partly down to that culture that they are more likley to be involved in those activities and you think those activities are negative you have to conclude it is indeed racist.
"Black culture" is one that glorifies gang activity violence and drugs.
So if you say that it is partly down to that culture that they are more likley to be involved in those activities and you think those activities are negative you have to conclude it is indeed racist.
What are you talking about, race or species when applied to humans is not a scientific term, scientists don't use it, it isn't useful or meaningful in any way. The genetic differences are minuscule, no groups of people are separated by thousands of years of evolution, that's the point. There are no neanderthal's, cro magnons, and other species left. We are all one species homo sapiens. There are differences but they cannot be classified as a different race or species.
There is no point in the future at which people will start talking about it(by sensible people at least).