Hillsborough inquest verdict.

zophiel · 29 Jun 2018 at 17:35

BaZ87 said:
You should really go back and educate yourself. The stand wasn't full when he gave the order to open the exit gate, the order that he lied about as the disaster was unfolding in order to put the blame onto the supporters rather than do something to save lives.

the sections that that gate supplied were full. they held about 2k people and had that in already. the turnstiles that were further down supplied access to the areas that weren't as full.

i have in no way taken blame from the police they ****** up. but the fans are equally to blame. are liverpool fan that stupid that they think that a section of stadium magically vanished leaving space for them when the gate that was closed because that was full was suddenly opened???

inogen · 29 Jun 2018 at 17:41

zophiel said:
the sections that that gate supplied were full. they held about 2k people and had that in already. the turnstiles that were further down supplied access to the areas that weren't as full.

i have in no way taken blame from the police they ****** up. but the fans are equally to blame. are liverpool fan that stupid that they think that a section of stadium magically vanished leaving space for them when the gate that was closed because that was full was suddenly opened???

You've got no idea. And no idea about the stadium layout. Nor any idea about how crowds behave.

Liverpool fans to blame indeed.

BaZ87 · 29 Jun 2018 at 17:56

zophiel said:
the sections that that gate supplied were full. they held about 2k people and had that in already. the turnstiles that were further down supplied access to the areas that weren't as full.

i have in no way taken blame from the police they ****** up. but the fans are equally to blame. are liverpool fan that stupid that they think that a section of stadium magically vanished leaving space for them when the gate that was closed because that was full was suddenly opened???

You've again shown that you have no idea what you're talking about. The turnstiles and exit gate that the police opened were before the entrances to the pens - in other words the turnstiles were for the entire stand, not the individual pens. The police ordered the gate open and the supporters entered the central pens, not knowing these were full as the police didn't close these or block off the tunnel that led to them.

Please go and educate yourself on what happened rather than post completely untrue nonsense in future.

Tefal · 29 Jun 2018 at 18:00

I still don't understand how people push forward enough to crush people to death without physically, consciously pushing the people in front of them.

I mean I've seen tube platforms so packed that people where standing on the stairs down, yet people weren't being pushed or falling onto the tracks folks just stood about complaining

VincentHanna · 29 Jun 2018 at 18:01

I've been at concerts and gigs before where it's been bad. People at the back don't realise what they are doing to people Futher in.

BaZ87 · 29 Jun 2018 at 18:02

Tefal said:
I still don't understand how people push forward enough to crush people to death without physically, consciously pushing the people in front of them.

I mean I've seen tube platforms so packed that people where standing on the stairs down, yet people weren't being pushed or falling onto the tracks folks just stood about complaining

Football supporters were treated like animals in those days and it wasn't uncommon for stands to be so tightly packed that you had no control over your movements. To supporters entering the back of the pens it wouldn't have appeared any different to 99% of other matches.

rubberduck · 29 Jun 2018 at 18:04

VincentHanna said:
I've been at concerts and gigs before where it's been bad. People at the back don't realise what they are doing to people Futher in.

I suspect they do.

Tefal · 29 Jun 2018 at 18:11

BaZ87 said:
Football supporters were treated like animals in those days and it wasn't uncommon for stands to be so tightly packed that you had no control over your movements. To supporters entering the back of the pens it wouldn't have appeared any different to 99% of other matches.

I suppose but that means the people at the back still had to be pushing the people in front of them.

Honestly I've never been to a football match so I'm comparing this more to concerts etc think the biggest was 20kish people so still a bit smaller but the result was just thousands of people stood in a big snaking queue trudging forward a shuffle at a time.

For the people already in the stand sure they were incapable of moving or having any influence on the situation but the people who came down the tunnel the first, what 100 of them? Must have tried to push into the stands, which was replicated by those who turned up later otherwise you'd again just end up with a queue.

The force to crush a human being is pretty big, spread over a crowd a thousand people deep it does become very small but that still requires a thousand people in a line to all push the person in front of them.

Tefal · 29 Jun 2018 at 18:12

VincentHanna said:
I've been at concerts and gigs before where it's been bad. People at the back don't realise what they are doing to people Futher in.

But they presumably realise what they are doing to the person directly infront of them that they are physically pushing to try and make forward progress?

zophiel · 29 Jun 2018 at 18:15

exactly how could they not know that push 1 person forward means that they in turn push 1 forward etc etc

some people are just to stupid to understand this.

when it comes to concerts where do the front rows go??? into the stage / barriers?? stadiums into the pitch and back then into the cage barriers

when it came to a certain stadium, they seem to think that the just disappeared into thin air......

Yadda · 29 Jun 2018 at 18:17

The potential dangers presented by large crowds are quite well understood. That's why they have to be well managed.

dowie · 29 Jun 2018 at 18:21

Tefal said:
I still don't understand how people push forward enough to crush people to death without physically, consciously pushing the people in front of them.

I mean I've seen tube platforms so packed that people where standing on the stairs down, yet people weren't being pushed or falling onto the tracks folks just stood about complaining

it wasn't exactly uncommon for fans without tickets to try and get in back then, and indeed fans turning up late etc.. though this was milked way too much by the police as an excuse for their own failings - plus they tried to turn it into some sort of conspiracy on the part of the fans to rush the gates or something (which isn't supported by the inquiry)

the police have a lot of blame here tbh... though I don't think some of the fans were exactly saints either - football in the 80s attracted plenty of scumbags - see the Heysle Stadium disaster for example and so I don't think it is completely unreasonable to cite their behaviour too, though this issue seems so polarised that for some people the fans are all saints and the police are 100% to blame

BaZ87 · 29 Jun 2018 at 18:21

Tefal said:
I suppose but that means the people at the back still had to be pushing the people in front of them.

Honestly I've never been to a football match so I'm comparing this more to concerts etc think the biggest was 20kish people so still a bit smaller but the result was just thousands of people stood in a big snaking queue trudging forward a shuffle at a time.

For the people already in the stand sure they were incapable of moving or having any influence on the situation but the people who came down the tunnel the first, what 100 of them? Must have tried to push into the stands, which was replicated by those who turned up later otherwise you'd again just end up with a queue.

The force to crush a human being is pretty big, spread over a crowd a thousand people deep it does become very small but that still requires a thousand people in a line to all push the person in front of them.

It depends on how literally you define the term pushing. As with any crowded area, initially you squeeze forward inch by inch but in a stand that was already at capacity (and that capacity being well in excess of what was safe), having thousands more supporters try to squeeze in the back, using very little force creates that massive force at the front that caused people to die.

Loves Love Island said:
it wasn't exactly uncommon for fans without tickets to try and get in back then, and indeed fans turning up late etc.. though this was milked way too much by the police as an excuse for their own failings - plus they tried to turn it into some sort of conspiracy on the part of the fans to rush the gates or something (which isn't supported by the inquiry.

Milked by police? This was proven to be untrue in the Taylor report 28 years ago!

Tefal · 29 Jun 2018 at 18:25

Yadda said:
The potential dangers presented by large crowds are quite well understood. That's why they have to be well managed.

Yeah I suppose that's why I'm confused by it.

I'm the generation that the lessons learned from Hillsborough were applied to.

So I've never seen these crushed I've only seen well managed well regulated crowds and venue entrances/exits.

Thinking about it in most set ups today pushing forward would simply result in your section of the queue getting wider and a marshal comming over and telling you to behave or bigger off theres no funnel points where people could panic and get a overall direction of momentum started to cause a crush

dowie · 29 Jun 2018 at 18:28

BaZ87 said:
Milked by police? This was proven to be untrue in the Taylor report 28 years ago!

Yup, I'm not sure what your point is? It is something the police tried to use and it was shown to be false.

BaZ87 · 29 Jun 2018 at 18:30

Loves Love Island said:
Yup, I'm not sure what your point is? It is something the police tried to use and it was shown to be false.

I was emphasising on what you said. It wasn't just milked by the police as if there was an element of truth to it. It was proven to be completely untrue and not just in the most recent report or inquest but in 1990.

dowie · 29 Jun 2018 at 18:32

BaZ87 said:
I was emphasising on what you said. It wasn't just milked by the police as if there was an element of truth to it. It was proven to be completely untrue and not just in the most recent report or inquest but in 1990.

some fans did turn up late though, some fans won't have had tickets, this was milked by the police and used as an excuse - I'm not sure what the issue is there?

BaZ87 · 29 Jun 2018 at 18:36

Loves Love Island said:
some fans did turn up late though, some fans won't have had tickets, this was milked by the police and used as an excuse - I'm not sure what the issue is there?

There is zero evidence that either late or ticketless fans played any part in the disaster. Again, I wasn't arguing or even disagreeing with your point but going further than what you said as it is something that still gets brought up by those looking to blame Liverpool supporters despite the fact that it's been proven to be bs 28 years ago.

The Running Man · 29 Jun 2018 at 19:20

VincentHanna said:
I've been at concerts and gigs before where it's been bad. People at the back don't realise what they are doing to people Futher in.

Yeah because they are drunk morons usually pushing and shoving.

Probably carry on when inside too.

But any way just watch a video of the crowd at this game before the match and tell me how sensible, polite and agreeable they looked to slowly take their place in the stadium.

Werewolf · 29 Jun 2018 at 19:26

zophiel said:
exactly how could they not know that push 1 person forward means that they in turn push 1 forward etc etc

some people are just to stupid to understand this.

when it comes to concerts where do the front rows go??? into the stage / barriers?? stadiums into the pitch and back then into the cage barriers

when it came to a certain stadium, they seem to think that the just disappeared into thin air......

Because, and this is shockling news, you assume that there is space and people are just getting closer together and that if there was a problem someone with better information than you have would be passing it on (for example a police officer or steward with a load hailer, or someone in the control room using a PA system).

There is a whole field of scientific study devoted to modelling crowd dynamics and one of the things they learned quite early on is that what seems to be an insignificant factor at one point (IE people pushing forward like they do in trains, crowded supermarkets etc), can have catastrophic effects out of sight, this disaster as well as various completely avoidable deaths when things like fire alarms have gone off in large buildings led to people starting to study what exactly happens..

To the people at the back it's often no different to the sort of crowd conditions you are used to, the people in the middle may be aware something is wrong but not sure what or how bad, and have no way stop it, and even those just a few rows back from the front may not realise how bad it is where people are being pushed against something that doesn't move/give like the human body.

To put it simply you're wrong in your assumption that people entering the stadium must have known something was seriously wrong.