Thai cave rescue - One of the divers has died

danlightbulb · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:21

Yep space research companies have a great experience with caves im sure.

The point is not about the experience as such its about problem solving skills and the ability to mobilise resources and equipment fast. Do you think the Thai military has as much experience with high tech gear as ours does? These foreign militaries are very regimented, i would not say they are innovative, would you?

Fair enough on the sedation, im not assuming all ideas would work they are suggestions to consider and discount or not.

But some points stand. Why cant they dewater it faster?

CHokKA · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:26

danlightbulb said:
Yep space research companies have a great experience with caves im sure.

The point is not about the experience as such its about problem solving skills and the ability to mobilise resources and equipment fast. Do you think the Thai military has as much experience with high tech gear as ours does? These foreign militaries are very regimented, i would not say they are innovative, would you?

Fair enough on the sedation, im not assuming all ideas would work they are suggestions to consider and discount or not.

But some points stand. Why cant they dewater it faster?

Space is an environment that we can't naturally breathe in. Space engineering companies have developed systems to provide air in such circumstances. Underwater is a similar situation because nobody can breathe under water without equipment. It doesn't surprise me that you're unable to draw parallels between the two.

Yadda · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:31

danlightbulb said:
Why cant they dewater it faster?

It's the start of the wet season. The ground is full of water. They have to pump the water out of the tunnels faster than they fill up to have any impact at all.

Maybe the Dyson chap could come up with something?

danlightbulb · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:31

CHokKA said:
Space is an environment that we can't naturally breathe in. Space engineering companies have developed systems to provide air in such circumstances. Underwater is a similar situation because nobody can breathe under water without equipment. It doesn't surprise me that you're unable to draw parallels between the two.

ive just drawn parallels. ive stated quite clearly its about problem solving and the mobilisation of tech. But tech is no good if it cant be deployed properly and what experience has the thai incident control got of this?

danlightbulb · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:32

Yadda said:
It's the start of the wet season. The ground is full of water. They have to pump the water out of the tunnels faster than they fill up to have any impact at all.

Maybe the Dyson chap could come up with something?

How can you be assured they have the most pumps on site that they can physically get in there? Ive seen a photo of a couple of tiny things so far.

CHokKA · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:34

danlightbulb said:
ive just drawn parallels. ive stated quite clearly its about problem solving and the mobilisation of tech. But tech is no good if it cant be deployed properly and what experience has the thai incident control got of this?

No, you edited and added that after I read your post. Your post directly responded and said "Yep space research companies have a great experience with caves im sure." and my post responds directly to that. It's nothing to do with experience in caves. It's about experience in a closed environment that has no natural air.

CHokKA · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:35

danlightbulb said:
How can you be assured they have the most pumps on site that they can physically get in there? Ive seen a photo of a couple of tiny things so far.

How can you be so sure? I'm sure that they're not uploading photos of every piece of equipment that they have out there...

200sols · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:36

I presume the small size of the tunnels is a problem for pumping water out, it will be hard or impossible to get large pipes to pump out sufficient water inside the tiny passageways.

wesley · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:37

There is other thing to consider.

The more people you send in the cave, the higher carbon dioxide level will be. So pumping air in wont reduce the carbon dioxide level. It'll needs to be controlled carefully.

So having space people involved can be very beneficial as they design and develop carbon dioxide scrubber or whatever it's called

danlightbulb · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:38

CHokKA said:
No, you edited and added that after I read your post. Your post directly responded and said "Yep space research companies have a great experience with caves im sure." It's nothing to do with experience in caves. It's about experience in a closed environment that has no natural air.

I havent edited that post you just looked only at the first sentance.

This is all about assurance. Is the team doing all it can. I dont think so. Is the team looking at the right solutions, I dont think so. Is the team the most capable team that could be deployed out of the whole world. I dont think so.

AndyT · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:38

danlightbulb said:
Do you think the Thai military has as much experience with high tech gear as ours does? These foreign militaries are very regimented, i would not say they are innovative, would you?

My guess is that no one in this forum has much of an idea regarding the levels of relative experience between the military powers of the world in relation to cave diving technology. Although cave diving is basically scuba gear and lights. I don't really think it has innovated much as a sport in the last, oh, maybe 40 years?

I'm pretty sure all military diving outfits will use similar rebreather type equipment when they want to blow things up. Rebreathers are massively bulky around the mask and I doubt Draeger make the LAR V in kid's size 11-12.

We are talking pumps, scuba gear and lights. I really don't think there is a magic secret tech in a cupboard at the Royal Navy that will help all that much.

The space people who are already there might have some innovative clever ideas, probably more than any military outfit.

AndyT · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:40

wesley said:
There is other thing to consider.

The more people you send in the cave, the higher carbon dioxide level will be. So pumping air in wont reduce the carbon dioxide level. It'll needs to be controlled carefully.

So having space people involved can be very beneficial as they design and develop carbon dioxide scrubber or whatever it's called

He is also advocating staged air lines which will require generators inside the cave. So more pumps will then be required to remove the combustion gases from an environment that is already 15% oxygen and should be 21%.

danlightbulb · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:43

AndyT said:
He is also advocating staged air lines which will require generators inside the cave. So more pumps will then be required to remove the combustion gases from an environment that is already 15% oxygen and should be 21%.

Generators outside cave supplying electrical power to pumps inside cave. Youre just being pedantic now.

Tefal · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:43

With a thought to the pumps depending where they are they might have to stop or limit them as divers move ibto the cave, trying to swim/crawl against the current of a few passive pumps in a small space would be very hard

Rroff · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:43

AndyT said:
He is also advocating staged air lines which will require generators inside the cave. So more pumps will then be required to remove the combustion gases from an environment that is already 15% oxygen and should be 21%.

I'm not sure what the requirements are of the generators but surely this is there someone like Musk is applicable in terms of portable power that doesn't require combustion? or as above running powerlines inside as well.

wesley · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:44

Yes but how heavy the batteries ?

Tefal · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:47

Rroff said:
I'm not sure what the requirements are of the generators but surely this is there someone like Musk is applicable in terms of portable power that doesn't require combustion? or as above running powerlines inside as well.

How much does 4km of electrical cable weigh?

danlightbulb · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:49

Tefal said:
How much does 4km of electrical cable weigh?

Quite a lot but so what? it comes on rollers you unravel it. it can also be cut and jointed fairly quickly so if you get to a tricky spot you cut, move on and joint it.

Yadda · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:52

danlightbulb said:
How can you be assured they have the most pumps on site that they can physically get in there? Ive seen a photo of a couple of tiny things so far.

My assurance or otherwise wouldn't count for much. I know nothing about it. Neither do you by the sound of it.

Rroff · 6 Jul 2018 at 16:53

Tefal said:
How much does 4km of electrical cable weigh?

Depends on the power requirements (and types of material used). For a few 100 watts of power handling it would be around 23kg (could probably get away with less) though there would be things like transmission losses, etc. to take into account.