Do I have to bake a cake for a gay couple?

sityeuropa

sityeuropa

sityeuropa

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Interesting topic I came across from a Joe Rogan podcast.

Is it illegal in this country to not sell business services based on gender, race? Even though in business denying services to a particular group would probably only hurt the business.

So if we can say to the cake analogy no you have to bake cakes to gay couples then the following examples should also be valid right?

A straight gigalo who has to offer services for both men and women.
A Masseuse same scenario.

Yet the customer's can wilfully discriminate. A customer may choose to only get his haircut at a black barbers. Nobody would get in trouble for that.

Starts at about 43:00

 
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are gay clubs allowed to discriminate against straight men? not talking night clubs.
like I'm sure there are gay only clubs for something or other existing in this country
 
I suppose the main problem is - should people be forced to undertake a service they don't want to, for any reason - likewise if they're racist, should they be punished, or forced to bake a wedding cake for a black couple?

Which is best for society? everyone is forced to implicitly accept and embrace every [faith, sex, gender, orientation, race, etc] or face prosecution - or people are allowed to dislike and discriminate because it's their choice to do so?

My problem, is that it sometimes feels like we're trying to over-optimise society, in making it so everything is perfect for everyone - when someone doesn't conform or has different beliefs we want to throw them under the bus and make an example out of them.

I'm gay - if I went to a baker and he said "sorry mate, not making queer cakes **** off" I'd probably just laugh it off, or in reality - I'd probably do 5 minutes research to make sure I'm not likely to encounter any aggro when ordering it and avoid the whole charade.

I get the impression from some of these cases and reports, that the 'claimant' in some cases might actively be angling for confrontation, I think that does knock the wind out of their sails a little bit - it's a bit like me expecting to get a gay wedding in a mosque, then playing hell and having a meltdown on twitter, when I'm turned away by the imam or whatever.

That said, if I ordered an Uber and the guy drove on when he saw me stood with my boyfriend - I'd be ****** off, but I've never experienced anything like that in my life so.... meh.

arknor said:
are gay clubs allowed to discriminate against straight men? not talking night clubs.
like I'm sure there are gay only clubs for something or other existing in this country
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I've been to a couple of gay bars in my time, (mostly the big ones in London) and actually, they're some of the most laid back least discriminatory places you can find, I've almost always been with straight friends - they're generally the last place on earth where you expect any trouble of any sort.

That's not to say "bad" places exist, but I've never heard of bars where only gay men are allowed, there have always been loads of women in the gay bars I've been too :p
 
Screeeech said:
I've been to a couple of gay bars in my time, (mostly the big ones in London) and actually, they're some of the most laid back least discriminatory places you can find, I've almost always been with straight friends - they're generally the last place on earth where you expect any trouble of any sort.

That's not to say "bad" places exist, but I've never heard of bars where only gay men are allowed, there have always been loads of women in the gay bars I've been too :p
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as I said not as in night clubs.
more like bicycle clubs, hiking clubs etc.

Theres sure some gay only ones around maybe on the websites to find friends like citysocializer etc
 
Assuming a scenario where the baker in question owns a small bakery and has no other staff, then I think they should be able to decide who they do or do not bake cakes for. I'd hope that in this more modern era, that they wouldn't turn down a customer on the grounds of them being gay. I'd consider it prejudiced if they did turn down a customer on those grounds aslone but it's ultimately their choice I reckon.
 
sityeuropa said:
Interesting topic I came across from a Joe Rogan podcast.

Is it illegal in this country to not sell business services based on gender, race? Even though in business denying services to a particular group would probably only hurt the business.

So if we can say to the cake analogy no you have to bake cakes to gay couples then the following examples should also be valid right?
Click to expand...

In general you should sell a cake to a gay couple just as you would any couple. There was however a case in the UK that I disagree with where the baker refused a cake promoting a political campaign in support of gay marriage - I think when it gets into commissioned products like that then the creator ought to be able to say no to the product he's being asked to create (not no to the customer buying it).

To take it to extremes - suppose a different campaign was chosen "Gays against Islam" and the requested a muslim baker make the cake - he'd perhaps quite rightly turn it down based on the slogan not based on the fact the customer is gay.

A straight gigalo who has to offer services for both men and women.
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there are issues with consent there a sex worker can probably turn anyone down for any reasons

A Masseuse same scenario.
Click to expand...

I suspect that would be discriminatory though

Screeeech said:
I've been to a couple of gay bars in my time, (mostly the big ones in London) and actually, they're some of the most laid back least discriminatory places you can find, I've almost always been with straight friends - they're generally the last place on earth where you expect any trouble of any sort.

That's not to say "bad" places exist, but I've never heard of bars where only gay men are allowed, there have always been loads of women in the gay bars I've been too :p
Click to expand...

It is usually the women who are the targets/seen as a problem by some venues - some places will openly discriminate against straight people (namely groups of girls - whether hen dos or just so called "fag hags"). That is rather separate from the crowd generally being very friendly, laid back etc..

I suspect it is far easier PR wise for a gay bar to say to someone "you're not coming in because you're a group of straight women" than it is for a regular bar to say "you're not coming in because you're gay" - that sort of thing could be up on twitter rather promptly .
 
arknor said:
as I said not as in night clubs.
more like bicycle clubs, hiking clubs etc.

Theres sure some gay only ones around maybe on the websites to find friends like citysocializer etc
Click to expand...

Sorry I need to learn to read..

My take on things like gay clubs that host activities only for gays, is that it's creating an 'aggro free' environment, in the sense you don't have to worry about being yourself with your partner around other people, or have to worry about receiving abuse. Trust me - if you're gay and you walk through the high street of pretty much most towns whilst holding hands, with the exception of Brighton, London and maybe Leeds or Edinburgh, you're going to get some **** and lots of funny looks.

In reality I think most of those clubs are simply trying to take the pressure off. I also think it's extremely unlikely that a straight person would actually be denied entry or participation to any such club or event, these things tend be just a way to get a like-minded group of people together so they can have a stress-free time, they're not really discriminating - just trying to attract people from a specific group, rather than actually stop or deny anyone.
 
On a money level, one would be a terrible businessman to turn down work because of the figurine sitting on the top of the cake.
 
Isn’t it basically the issue of trying to figure out where the line should be between free speech and no discrimination?
 
I think a lot of it is do with the reasoning behind refusing to make something for someone one.

If you make cakes, why would you not make one for a gay couple?
If you make tables, why would you not make one for for a gay couple?
If you make personalised greetings cards, why would you not make one for a gay couple?

The only reasoning you can give, is that you don't like gay people/believe being gay is wrong.

Your other scenarios bring other things into play, such as the gigolo's own sexual orientation or the masseuse's expertise/specialities (i will admit i don't know much about it, but there might be differences in massages for men and women - similar to how you get male/female hair salons).

Basically, they could be turning people down or at the very least suggesting they go elsewhere for a genuine reason, other than just a dislike of that person's sexual orientation.
 
What about Cancer Research's Race for life?

An NATIONALLY run event that openly discriminates via gender and is not dealt with by authorities.
 
Loads of events discriminate, mountain bike venue has women only days for instance, oddly the normal events are for both there is no men's only day.
Same for a gym near here there is a woman's only night, but no male only night.
It does wind me up at times, the gun one I can kind of understand it's run by an old friend and I did ask him about it and he said he had loads of complaints from woman that guys wouldn't stop hitting on them while working out.
 
Wow this is an old story.

Anyway, the conclusion after much discussion and deliberation by people more intelligent than you or I is simple...

Businesses can refuse to trade with whomever they wish and for whatever reason they have. That’s always been the case. The success of a business refusing trade for silly reasons will fail and therefore cases like this require no intervention from anyone else.

This is called capitalism.

/thread
 
Imo, people should be free to refuse business on whatever grounds they wish. In this case, I’m sure there’s another bakery that would bake you a cake, and the company that refuses loses business. If that business can afford to put their political/religious principals above profit then that should be their prerogative.
 
arctine said:
Businesses can refuse to trade with whomever they wish and for whatever reason they have. That’s always been the case. The success of a business refusing trade for silly reasons will fail and therefore cases like this require no intervention from anyone else.
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except they can't and we have laws regarding discrimination in place for good reason
 
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