UN Migration Pact - Criticising Migration = Hate Crime

[Chris Wilson]

I am sure I saw a post earlier today saying there were protests over this "pact" in Belgium with a counter post saying the protesters against it numbered very very few. Seems there were a hell of a lot of disgruntled people on the street keen to be able to voice dissent over immigration, and in my opinion, very understandably so given what they have suffered at the hands of immigrants and descendants of them.

"Thousands of demonstrators in Brussels have marched against a UN migration pact, signed in Marrakech last week.

Flemish right-wing parties called the march, which took place near major EU institutions, amid fears the pact could lead to an increase in immigration.

Police deployed tear gas and water cannon as clashes broke out. About 5,500 protesters took part.

A counter-protest organised by left-wing groups and charities in the city centre drew about 1,000 people."

From the BBC.

 

[StriderX]

5500 is tiny, it's actually pathetic, dont EVEN.

Still literally 0.001% of the EU population, actually ******* worthless, until they can gather a sizable multi-hundred-thousand or million person protest, no one will give a ****, they didn't even give a **** when 1-2% of the UK protested the Iraq War, so expecting anyone to care about something a 1000 times smaller is laughable.

 

[Chris Wilson]

For every person, and note that a lot of them were far from "gammons", many were the youngsters who some here would say hate anything anti migration, out physically protesting a multiple will be at home harbouring the same resentment that signing this pact will give them. Much as it appears to irk you many EU countries are now becoming strongly anti immigration and actioning to reduce or stop it. The EU cracks deepen daily. Seen the predictions for how Marine Le Pen will fair in France soon? Have a stiffener first

 

[MookJong]

You can definitely see a divide now between people who want to keep their homeland majority native and those who would do away with any kind of idea of nation state identity. Looking at birthrates inside and outside Europe and relaxed boarder policy it can only mean the native populations will be in complete decline in a few generations.

People are clearly worried that governments are not looking out for their family and heritage and that basically in the individualistic world anyone can go anywhere and anything goes. I think to be happy going forward you basically have to give up all the ideas and ideals of previous generations about your home country.

Surely there will be a level of resent, but there again future generations will probably have no clue about their history. It is just weird for our generation to watch this cultural shift after a millennia.

 

[StriderX]

You can definitely see a divide now between people who want to keep their homeland majority native and those who would do away with any kind of idea of nation state identity. Looking at birthrates inside and outside Europe and relaxed boarder policy it can only mean the native populations will be in complete decline in a few generations.

People are clearly worried that governments are not looking out for their family and heritage and that basically in the individualistic world anyone can go anywhere and anything goes. I think to be happy going forward you basically have to give up all the ideas and ideals of previous generations about your home country.

Surely there will be a level of resent, but there again future generations will probably have no clue about their history. It is just weird for our generation to watch this cultural shift after a millennia.

But they are looking out for your families, a declining population means dead economy, minimal public services. God i hope people get what they want, they deserve it.

 

[Roar87]

But they are looking out for your families, a declining population means dead economy, minimal public services. God i hope people get what they want, they deserve it.

It doesn't mean a dead economy, more hyperbole, what it means is that people have to pay more into pensions

 

[Deluxe1]

Yes we have a declining native population but why isn't the EU promoting the idea of us having more children over promoting mass migration / immigration.

It's like they would rather have open borders and every tom, dick n harry coming in instead of looking within to solve our problem.

 

[Hades]

It's all well and good importing migrants to fix our own temporary problem. But what happens tomorrow when the migrants are old too? Who looks after them? Do we forever just keep importing greater numbers of people? It's a pyramid scheme which can't work forever. We should look to fix the problem now rather than kick the can down the road for our children to fix. The problem will only get bigger thr longer we keep doing it.

What happens to the countries that the migrants are coming from? They are losing their best people to rich nations. What is going to happen to them long term?

 

[Freakbro]

Yes we have a declining native population but why isn't the EU promoting the idea of us having more children over promoting mass migration / immigration.

Well, it's not for the "EU" to dictate to nation states what to do about their populations birth rates - since it's not an authoritarian supra-national body, no matter how much you think it is.

And to actually answer your question, nation states are doing, just because you are unaware of it doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Germany has just recorded it's highest birth rate in over 40 years, with the increase seen in German national women as well not just from immigration. This has been done with a slew of family friendly policies for the last decade or so. But even with the immigration, their deaths still outweighed births.

Thing is, it costs money. And after the financial crash, that's been in short supply to spend on social programs.

Combine that with the fact the typical attitude of the more right leaning people is "If you can't afford kids, don't have them...why should my taxes pay for your children!!!" You can't have it both ways...

Also, one of the biggest reason for the birth rate declining in developed nations is women being educated and putting a career over childbirth. Not sure how you counter that.

It's like they would rather have open borders and every tom, dick n harry coming in instead of looking within to solve our problem.

Like I said, they do, you just don't actually look to see before spouting such rubbish.

And immigration across the whole EU has been dropping since the peak in 2015 which was due to pretty exceptional circumstances. Then also you need to differentiate between migrants, refugees and illegal immigration.

Economic migrants are required, refugees should be taken in on humanitarian grounds and illegal migrants are...illegal and no-one is "inviting" them in.

 

[StriderX]

It's all well and good importing migrants to fix our own temporary problem. But what happens tomorrow when the migrants are old too? Who looks after them? Do we forever just keep importing greater numbers of people? It's a pyramid scheme which can't work forever. We should look to fix the problem now rather than kick the can down the road for our children to fix. The problem will only get bigger thr longer we keep doing it.

What happens to the countries that the migrants are coming from? They are losing their best people to rich nations. What is going to happen to them long term?

The economy is a pyramid scheme, unless people want to shaft themselves for generations they will continue to grow population until the boomers have left the demography that they so lightly destroyed.

 

[StriderX]

It doesn't mean a dead economy, more hyperbole, what it means is that people have to pay more into pensions

Actually *****.

We have debts to pay and you need to grow to pay them, we have 4 options and only 4.

• Growth: What we've been doing to the OBJECTIVE benefit of everyone.
• Repayment: Impossible, without totally destroying the NHS, Police, Fire Service, Legal services, Council services...
• Default: Incredibly horrific option for a country with huge international debts and a service economy.
• Inflation: Hard to justify for long.

So we're left with,

• Growth: What we've been doing to the OBJECTIVE benefit of everyone.
• Inflation: Hard to justify for long.

So you want Inflation then? Oh and people paying more into Pensions implies they have less money for the economy to grow, so checkmate on that.

 

[Hades]

The economy is a pyramid scheme, unless people want to shaft themselves for generations they will continue to grow population until the boomers have left the demography that they so lightly destroyed.

By that argument our generation will be shafting our children because we won't take responsibility and fix the problem now. Our children will look back on us and accuse us of doing exaclty what you denegrate the boomers for.

We should take responsibiltiy and fix this on our own watch, not kick the can down the road for our children to pick up.

Edit: Fixed typos

 

[StriderX]

By that argument our generation will be shafting our children because we won't take responsibility and fix the problem now. Our children will look back on us and accuse us doing exaclty what you denegrate the bokmers for.

We should take responsibiltiy and fix this on our own watch, not kick the can down the road for our children to pick up.

Mate, the children are ****** anyway, if it's not the climate it's the wealth that was stolen from them in the 80s onwards, they will have worse futures (compared to our ever enlightened ancestors) regardless of what happens now because some selfish ***** were too greedy. It has nothing to do with Immigration, they objectively add to the economy while taking very little in comparison to the native layabouts.

Until fundementally stupid social/political norms are erased in this country, we will continue to be unproductive and suicidal.

 

[Hades]

Mate, the children are ****** anyway, if it's not the climate it's the wealth that was stolen from them in the 80s onwards, they will have worse futures (compared to our ever enlightened ancestors) regardless of what happens now because some selfish ***** were too greedy. It has nothing to do with Immigration, they objectively add to the economy while taking very little in comparison to the native layabouts.

Until fundementally stupid social/political norms are erased in this country, we will continue to be unproductive and suicidal.

Just because they are going to face problems that is no reason to abdicate our responsibility and deliberately make it even worse.

 

[D.P.]

Working from home is becoming much more pervasive. Home delivery already is. That's two of the major factors. I think villages and towns are becoming much more viable again. I think self-driving cars as a form of public transport are also going to have a large effect on travel costs and infrastructure.

Working form is simply not possible for a large percentage of the workforce, and not desirable for many who can. And this leads to the more subtle issue that people living in cities are actually more productive that people living in small towns. Employees that are co-located are more productive workers. The easier and more natural communication leads to fewer errors, faster problem resolution, reduced wasted time (e.g., a 5 minute chat with a colleague over lunch might save days of needles work).

As for home delivery, that doesn't resolve the efficiency issues. It requires a truck to drive out to the village, which entails the construction and maintenance of a road/ Compare to someone in the city who just walks passed a little supermarket on the way home form work.


I agree that self-driving cars will make for interesting changes, but these again come at a cost of efficiency. If more people move to smaller villages then infrastructure has to be upgraded, te extra vehicles will cause greater congestion. And unless they are all fully electric and powered form renewable then the environmental impact is worse.



then you have a load of auxiliary issues. For example, if you live in London and loose your job you've likely got thousands of job openings to apply to. If you live in a village in Cornwall and loose your job you might be forced to move, or are unemployed for 6 months, or have to retrain in a new career.

As I said, I hate cities, love living in small village and couldn't imagine moving to an apartment in a big city. but it is very inefficient.


Getting back to the original point, some posters claimed living in a village was beneficial to the environment when the opposite is the case and moreover, people living in a city end up being much more productive overall, and it scales super-linearly so the bigger the city the bigger the benefits. If you split London up in 100 separate town the GDP of the UK wouldn't probably 10-12% at least all the while running costs to the government would increase by similar margins.

 

[D.P.]

It doesn't mean a dead economy, more hyperbole, what it means is that people have to pay more into pensions

No, the economy would tank as well because there wouldn't be the employees available and business would have to move to other countries where they have access to the resources.

 

[D.P.]

It's all well and good importing migrants to fix our own temporary problem. But what happens tomorrow when the migrants are old too? Who looks after them? Do we forever just keep importing greater numbers of people? It's a pyramid scheme which can't work forever. We should look to fix the problem now rather than kick the can down the road for our children to fix. The problem will only get bigger thr longer we keep doing it.

What happens to the countries that the migrants are coming from? They are losing their best people to rich nations. What is going to happen to them long term?

The world isn't ready for Communism yet so there is really no choice.

As for the effects on the migrant countires, counter-intuitively is is actually generally very positive overall:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_capital_flight

Research shows that there are significant economic benefits of human capital flight both for the migrants themselves and those who remain in the country of origin.[3][4][5][6][7] It has been found that emigration of skilled individuals to the developed world contributes to greater education and innovation in the developing world.[8][9][10][11][12] Research also suggests that emigration, remittances and return migration can have a positive impact on democratization and the quality political institutions in the country of origin.[13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21]


Economic effects
Research suggests that migration (both low-and high-skilled) is beneficial both to the receiving and sending countries.[34][35][36][37] According to one study, welfare increases in both types of countries: "welfare impact of observed levels of migration is substantial, at about 5% to 10% for the main receiving countries and about 10% in countries with large incoming remittances".[34] According to economists Michael Clemens and Lant Pratchett, "permitting people to move from low-productivity places to high-productivity places appears to be by far the most efficient generalized policy tool, at the margin, for poverty reduction"

Studies show that the elimination of barriers to migration would have profound effects on world GDP, with estimates of gains ranging between 67–147.3%.[50][51][52] Research also finds that migration leads to greater trade in goods and services between the sending and receiving countries.[53][54][55]

Basically, migration benefits both developing and developed countries greatly. Increasing migration level would make all countries richer and reduce global poverty.
As such, migration is not just a short term solution to an aging population but part of a long term fix for humanity.

 

[Roar87]

No, the economy would tank as well because there wouldn't be the employees available and business would have to move to other countries where they have access to the resources.

Loads of jobs will be done away with in the next 20-50 years by AI and robotics, we just won't need those employees.

 

[StriderX]

The main issues with cities can be resolved rather easily if the government is willing to compromise, more civic space, more greenery and less pollution are all coming, if not by necessity but to keep people from being unproductive.

It won't ever be as supposedly green as the countryside is, but the fact remains that for that greenery to remain as such, we'll have to retreat from it and let it redevelop on it's own, ignoring Chernobyl's radiation, the lack of people has made it an urban paradise, the people are why it isn't green in the first place.

As well people should realise that Britain hasn't being truly natural for centuries, what is perceived as nature is very much an engineered environment we destroyed ages ago. The biggest of which is the Highlands, devoid of the life it once had.

 

[Hades]

The world isn't ready for Communism yet so there is really no choice.

As for the effects on the migrant countires, counter-intuitively is is actually generally very positive overall:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_capital_flight



Basically, migration benefits both developing and developed countries greatly. Increasing migration level would make all countries richer and reduce global poverty.
As such, migration is not just a short term solution to an aging population but part of a long term fix for humanity.

Not quite sure how ypu got commuism from my statement.

What you say about emigration being a benefiit to the source nation may be true in some cases. But lets look at that more closely. If the source nation is somewhere highly skilled such as eastern europe then it leaves villages decimated of their younger generation. They may well send money back but who is looking after their elderly while they are here? Several easutern european cluntries have expressed concern over such migrations.

So let's look at underdeveloped nations too. A migrant from Africa (for example) is likely to gain a lot from migrating to a more advanced nation. But unlike in those studies I think they are far less likely to return home and therefore this benefuts wont be realised at home. They are also unlikely to offer much advantage to a new host nation apart from providing unskilled labour. That's exactly the sort of labour we won't need in 20 years due to automation.