Stupid Woman.. or Stupid People?

VincentHanna · 20 Dec 2018 at 18:12

The amount of coverage this got, vs the Government being IN CONTEMPT OF PARLIMENT is ridiculous

Anti labour bias is clear for all to see.

dowie · 20 Dec 2018 at 18:19

String said:
Given that we actually know this person and his career history, that's a pretty absurd statement to make.

What exactly are you referring to? You don't understand what including someone's gender in a statement when it doesn't really have any need to be included could be interpreted as sexist?

What is your opinion on the other example?

I think it is absurd to act as though you're totally clueless here tbh..

Gerard · 20 Dec 2018 at 18:23

Only seen it the once and to me it looked like he said people, too much lip movement for it to be woman.

Rroff · 20 Dec 2018 at 19:03

VincentHanna said:
The amount of coverage this got, vs the Government being IN CONTEMPT OF PARLIMENT is ridiculous

Anti labour bias is clear for all to see.

He pretty much handed the Tories an early Christmas present - between this and Drones over Gatwick the actions of the Tory party over the Brexit vote has all but disappeared off the news.

Hawk Tuah · 20 Dec 2018 at 19:16

I find it bemusing that the 'W' word has now overtaken the 'C' word in offensiveness. At least the 'C' word is gender neutral.

kiteloopy · 20 Dec 2018 at 19:42

Gerard said:
Only seen it the once and to me it looked like he said people, too much lip movement for it to be woman.

That's what I see.
To be fair, they are at this moment.

Dirk Diggler · 20 Dec 2018 at 20:25

dowie said:
What exactly are you referring to? You don't understand what including someone's gender in a statement when it doesn't really have any need to be included could be interpreted as sexist?

Assuming he called her a stupid woman (and he has denied this), it wouldn't be sexist in that context. As I said, we know the man's career history and he is clearly not prejudiced against women. If he did say those two words, then they were promoted by frustration, not sexism.

dowie said:
What is your opinion on the other example?

Your other example is a straw man in the making. The only credible analogy would be to consider if May had called Corbyn a "stupid man", would this be considered misandry? So I put that question to you.

dowie said:
I think it is absurd to act as though you're totally clueless here tbh..

Clueless? Sorry, you've lost me with that one.

Angilion · 20 Dec 2018 at 21:01

String said:
I literally just learned that.

So now we need to redefine "misogyny" to mean noun: "a stick to beat a man with when the moral high ground is required"

That is what dictionary entries for "misogyny" should read. Dictionaries should be descriptive rather than proscriptive, i.e. they should state what meanings a word has in use rather than any idea of what the word should mean. That's why dictionaries have added the obviously utterly incorrect definition of "literally" to mean "exactly the opposite of literally" - because that's how the word is now often being used. Of course, dictionaries are also affected by political power so they won't be giving an accurate descriptive usage of "misogyny" and will instead collude with the pretence that it still means "hatred of women" even though it no longer does any more than "literally" still means "literally".

Angilion · 20 Dec 2018 at 21:26

dowie said:
What exactly are you referring to? You don't understand what including someone's gender in a statement when it doesn't really have any need to be included could be interpreted as sexist?

What is your opinion on the other example?

I think it is absurd to act as though you're totally clueless here tbh..

Your point would be a lot stronger if it wasn't normal and almost universally considered inoffensive to use the words "man" and woman" when referring to a specific person. I think it shouldn't be, but that's a seperate issue. As long as it is normal to do so and almost universally considered inoffensive to do so, doing so is not hatred of all people of a particular sex. As you can clearly tell by the fact that referring to a specific man as being stupid is not reported in national news as being proof of hatred of all men. Especially so if there was no good evidence that the person being accused actually said it (as in this case - there's no good evidence that he said it).

The sexism regarding this issue is in the radically different way in which the phrases "stupid woman" and "stupid man" are treated, not in the use of either of those phrases.

dowie · 20 Dec 2018 at 21:27

String said:
Assuming he called her a stupid woman (and he has denied this), it wouldn't be sexist in that context. As I said, we know the man's career history and he is clearly not prejudiced against women. If he did say those two words, then they were promoted by frustration, not sexism.

That he generally isn't sexist isn't the point, that the phrase itself is seen as many by sexist and that he should already know this is the point.

Your other example is a straw man in the making. The only credible analogy would be to consider if May had called Corbyn a "stupid man", would this be considered misandry? So I put that question to you.

Well stupid man is the direct equivalent and so yes, there is the insinuation there. The other examples aren't a straw man argument, I don't think you understand what a straw man augment is.

Clueless? Sorry, you've lost me with that one.

He's fully aware that there are sexist implication to the phrase, IF he did indeed utter it then your argument that he gets a pass because he's he's got a history of not being sexist is rather silly. He's not completely clueless about the implications given the previous fall out from the Speaker using the same phrase towards Leadsom

Dirk Diggler · 20 Dec 2018 at 21:49

dowie said:
Well stupid man is the direct equivalent and so yes, there is the insinuation there. The other examples aren't a straw man argument, I don't think you understand what a straw man augment is.

You haven't answered the question.

dowie · 20 Dec 2018 at 21:52

String said:
You haven't answered the question.

Which question?

Dirk Diggler · 20 Dec 2018 at 22:02

dowie said:
Which question?

Come on, don't play hard to get.

String said:
So I put that question to you.

dowie · 20 Dec 2018 at 22:23

String said:
Come on, don't play hard to get.

You asked two questions, I was just clarifying which you were referring to, I did answer both as far as I'm aware, so in addition to clarifying which question you were referring to it might be helpful if you get to the point and also clarify what it was about my reply that you were unsure of:

dowie said:
Well stupid man is the direct equivalent and so yes, there is the insinuation there.

Dirk Diggler · 20 Dec 2018 at 22:59

dowie said:
it might be helpful if you get to the point and also clarify what it was about my reply that you were unsure of

I was unsure if you were saying outright that you would consider Theresa May to be a misandrist if she referred to Corbyn as a stupid man in a moment of frustration - just as Corbyn has been accused of misogynistic behaviour recently, an accusation you appear to concur with.

I'm more than happy to put my cards on the table; I didn't consider Corbyn to be a misogynist prior to yesterday's events, and I still don't. In actual fact, I would say May's behaviour was far more scathing and I'm not surprised she provoked a reaction.

dowie · 20 Dec 2018 at 23:24

String said:
I was unsure if you were saying outright that you would consider Theresa May to be a misandrist if she referred to Corbyn as a stupid man in a moment of frustration - just as Corbyn has been accused of misogynistic behaviour recently, an accusation you appear to concur with.

I didn't accuse Corbyn of being a misogynist and I wouldn't consider May to be a misandrist. I can certainly see where the implication comes from in either of those phrases and why they'd be better off avoiding it and/or why they might well be criticised for using it, especially given the previous controversy with Bercow and just the fact that it would already be known that there are issues with that phrase.

unwashed potato! · 20 Dec 2018 at 23:31

dowie said:
I didn't accuse Corbyn of being a misogynist and I wouldn't consider May to be a misandrist. I can certainly see where the implication comes from in either of those phrases and why they'd be better off avoiding it and/or why they might well be criticised for using it, especially given the previous controversy with Bercow and just the fact that it would already be known that there are issues with that phrase.

exactly.

which is why he would have said stupid people and not stupid woman

StriderX · 20 Dec 2018 at 23:32

This thread actually exists? Jesus, actually hilarious.

dowie · 21 Dec 2018 at 01:12

Fairly sure the answer is no said:
exactly.

which is why he would have said stupid people and not stupid woman

Not necessarily. Especially not necessarily when muttered to himself on the spur of the moment.

robgmun · 21 Dec 2018 at 07:36

It's pretty clear he said Stupid Woman, but it's the denying and behaviour afterwards that's making him look pretty bad. If he admitted it then he could have potentially turned the tables round and made the harpies yelling look like oversensitive flowers.