When do experts stop being experts?

I have already posted a link to support the assertion that intelligence has a strong inherited component. So that should answers your first question.

My point would be if you want to seriously assert such things as being true wouldn't you want to have done the scientific study to establish whether the hypothesis is correct or not?

My point is why would you want to make any such assertion? It's irrelevant to modern, humanist society. Civilised society carries the weakest members, be they frail or not that bright.

Studies into population intelligence can't be scientifically accurate because there is so little commonality between test subjects. You can't have an accurate control because people are complicated animals and forming a complete adult human is a bazillion factors from day zero. Healthcare, Food quality, education quality, societal view of education, home life, local economic conditions, social mobility etc etc, and that isn't even taking the life experience of parents and their parents into account.

Also, intelligent bigots are still bigots
 
My point is why would you want to make any such assertion? It's irrelevant to modern, humanist society. Civilised society carries the weakest members, be they frail or not that bright.

Its not irrelavant at all.

Let's take a look at the UK and its politicians as an example.

Labour, a party who could quite conceivably be in charge of the country in the next few years, has an equalities minister who wants to financially penalise companies that don't close their "gender pay gap" (presumably on the basis that she thinks such disparities are significantly down to societal discrimination rather then inhernet differences, on average, between the sexes) she has also indicated that she would act in a similiar manner with regards to the supposed 'racial pay gap' ...

If you are going to make it a matter of govermental policy to force companies to change their hiring practices based on a assertion of unwarranted discrimination being the cause for any apparent disparity in distribution you had better be making that decision on the basis of some sound evidence rather than uniformed pseudo science.


Unfortunately you seem to have fallen prey to Marxist style 'blank slate' thinking (or lack thereof)

Dawn Butler said:

 
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It's nothing to do with being politically correct. There are plenty of people who would happily subjugate or oppress others because of being ''superior'.

Bring the whole PC business into everything is just silly and seems to be the go to phrase for people to disagree with something without having a proper argument.

It is politically correct because only white people are shamed about saying this kind of thing. I've never seen a person of another race shamed for something similar.

I don't know if people know this, but any serious people who have studied the racial iq subject will say that white people aren't the most superior. But you, like many others, who read filtered newspapers with their own agendas, will think that these people are saying white people have the most intelligence. This misinformation is then clinged to by idiot white supremists and virtue signalling people.

It's also interesting that while talking about racial iq is frowned upon, people openingly accept iq differences within the same race, or between genders as acceptable. I guess talking about anything other than race isn't a triggering issue.
 
It is politically correct because only white people are shamed about saying this kind of thing. I've never seen a person of another race shamed for something similar.

I don't know if people know this, but any serious people who have studied the racial iq subject will say that white people aren't the most superior. But you, like many others, who read filtered newspapers with their own agendas, will think that these people are saying white people have the most intelligence. This misinformation is then clinged to by idiot white supremists and virtue signalling people.

It's also interesting that while talking about racial iq is frowned upon, people openingly accept iq differences within the same race, or between genders as acceptable. I guess talking about anything other than race isn't a triggering issue.
I don’t think IQ differences between genders is necessarily accepted. Get ready for a whole lot of Triggered. :p
 
I don’t think IQ differences between genders is necessarily accepted. Get ready for a whole lot of Triggered. :p

I don't think it is quite as sensitive a subject for someone to perhaps claim that males seem to show greater variability in various traits than women.

Of course if you were say a google engineer and present some of this stuff as fact when it isn't really all that clear and then throw in a few political opinions etc... and post on a public message board then you may well lose your job weeks later after it gets leaked to the press thanks to some SJW employees kicking off. I'd wager that guy would have been sacked pretty much instantly if he'd mentioned anything about race.
 
I don't think it is quite as sensitive a subject for someone to perhaps claim that males seem to show greater variability in various traits than women.

Of course if you were say a google engineer and present some of this stuff as fact when it isn't really all that clear and then throw in a few political opinions etc... and post on a public message board then you may well lose your job weeks later after it gets leaked to the press thanks to some SJW employees kicking off. I'd wager that guy would have been sacked pretty much instantly if he'd mentioned anything about race.

You're clearly referencing the James Damore case. Except you have your facts very wrong. Firstly, here is the memo he wrote. I'd welcome you pointing out anything he misrepresented or unrelated political opinions:

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf

Secondly, he did not "post on a public message board". He wrote it in response to a request for discussion and it was posted to a private, internal message board. Someone (who remains anonymous and presumably still employed at Google) then leaked it without consulting him to the wider public. Damore never tried to share it with the public.

Also, "variability in traits" isn't really the same as saying less intelligent. Indeed, Damore's citations showed that women and men were equal in average intelligence, a conclusion that Damore himself wrote in agreement with. This is not a like comparison.
 
You're clearly referencing the James Damore case. Except you have your facts very wrong. Firstly, here is the memo he wrote. I'd welcome you pointing out anything he misrepresented or unrelated political opinions:

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3914586/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf

Secondly, he did not "post on a public message board". He wrote it in response to a request for discussion and it was posted to a private, internal message board. Someone (who remains anonymous and presumably still employed at Google) then leaked it without consulting him to the wider public. Damore never tried to share it with the public.

Public message board is the wrong phrase to use, I guess as is posted publicly - I mean to emphasise public as in to all googlers rather than privately to some select people. I understand he didn't get the response he wanted when he initially raised concerns.

The political opinions are right there in the document you linked to as are his presentation of "facts".
 
Public message board is the wrong phrase to use, I guess as is posted publicly - I mean to emphasise public as in to all googlers rather than privately to some select people. I understand he didn't get the response he wanted when he initially raised concerns.

Public to members of an internal message board restricted to employees that was set up specifically to request views on the training programs he wrote his memo about, is not "public". It was widely reported that he published the memo. He did not. It was leaked without his consent seemingly in an attempt to get him fired.

The political opinions are right there in the document you linked to as are his presentation of facts.

I don't see anything unreasonable in the memo. Nor is it inappropriate to write about your political opinions. I asked for a specific example. I've helpfully provided the short memo for you just above. Feel free to share.
 
Public to members of an internal message board restricted to employees that was set up specifically to request views on the training programs he wrote his memo about, is not "public". It was widely reported that he published the memo. He did not. It was leaked without his consent seemingly in an attempt to get him fired.

See previous post, I'm well aware it wasn't public as in open to everyone.

I don't see anything unreasonable in the memo. Nor is it inappropriate to write about your political opinions. I asked for a specific example. I've helpfully provided the short memo for you just above. Feel free to share.

Did I claim it was unreasonable? I think it was a bit misguided for the reasons I've already given.
 
I don’t think IQ differences between genders is necessarily accepted. Get ready for a whole lot of Triggered. :p

The standard IQ test is specifically created with a range of questions that will ensure that the average (Mean) score for both men and women are the same at 100

It would be perfectly possible to create a test that was biased more towards Male cognitive skills or to create one that was biased more towards Female ones so that the average scores would be different.

But the tests are simply created the way they are. Nothing any more fundamentally meaningful can be interpreted in the results than just this.

What is interesting is that this does not work for the standard deviations. The SD for men is slightly greater than for Women. The difference is quite small, but it does mean that when you get to the extremes EG MENSA grade or Dumb_as_**** grade. Men outnumber Women 2:1 or even more.

(The reason why Smart Women often have a hard time finding suitably smart Male partners isn't because there is any scarcity in smart Males, it is simply that smart Women tend to be intolerable :p:D )

This actually says something interesting to me about the genetic component of cogitative ability and suggests that insofar as there is a genetic component, it is likley to be an X chromosome thing and that Men inherit their Smarts, (or Dumbs) from their Mothers rather than their Fathers. (And with daughters being the average of both their parents genetic components rather than the extremes of the Mothers hence the slightly narrower SD for Women.)

So Boys, If you want Smart Sons, Make sure they have a smart Mother!

(Anecdotally My observations over the years tend to support this. I have seen many examples of reasonably smart Men with Dim Wives who produce OK daughters but total airhead Sons)

I wonder if Watson actually expressed an opinion on this?:p
 
I believe it is true that all human populations out of Africa have around 3 % neanderthal DNA in them.

Sub Saharan Africans have no neanderthal DNA, thus africans are the true original homo sapiens.

And since neanderthal man was driven to extinction by the invasion of homo sapiens into there territory then aren't homo sapiens more intelligent?

And.....
 
The issue with this whole thing is that people can’t acknowledge trait differences between races without assuming that means the whole race is better and so is therefore racist. Go look up skin cancer statistics in USA by race. White mans skin cancer rate is crap compared to others. Does that mean black people have superior skin when it comes to defence against skin cancer? Absolutely. Is it racist to acknowledge it? No. Is it racist to deduce that because black people have better skin protecting against skin cancer, that they then as a race are better as a whole? Yes... so acknowledging this difference is fine and not racist but any one that shows an advantage towards white people, or not black people, is immediately racist.

We are different, we have different genetic advantages/disadvantages due to our environments. And that’s the point... different, not superior/inferior as a whole. I don’t doubt that there are cognitive differences between races. In fact I’d be shocked if there weren’t. There’s fruit/food abound in Africa all year. Europe has winters. Different environments different needs. The idea that the only difference would be skin colour is just laughable.
 
I believe it is true that all human populations out of Africa have around 3 % neanderthal DNA in them.

Sub Saharan Africans have no neanderthal DNA, thus africans are the true original homo sapiens.

And since neanderthal man was driven to extinction by the invasion of homo sapiens into there territory then aren't homo sapiens more intelligent?

And.....

And 2 + 2 = 83 :)

It's not really clear to what extent homo sapiens and homo neanderthalensis interbred or in what areas. Not in sub-Saharan Africa (because there weren't any homo neanderthalensis there), but it's less than clear elsewhere. Those genes...were they definitely from homo neanderthalensis or might they be from a common ancestor? Homo sapiens and homo neanderthalensis had a huge amount of common ancestry and were extremely similar. So extremely similar that they could interbreed. How about homo sapiens in other areas where homo neanderthalensis didn't live? Where exactly did homo neanderthalensis live, anyway? At one point it was thought to be only central and western Europe, but that turned out to be wrong.

Homo sapiens in sub-Saharan Africa might have had some interbreeding with other people in the homo genus. Homo neanderthalensis were far from being the only other homo species.

The fact that homo sapiens succeeded and homo neanderthalenis failed doesn't say anything about relative intelligence. The currently pencilled in hypothesis is that homo sapiens functioned better in larger groups and won out that way. Or maybe just outbred them. It's possible that homo neanderthalensis were more intelligent than homo sapiens.

It's possible for a hybrid to be more intelligent than either of the parent species.

We don't know, really.
 
See previous post, I'm well aware it wasn't public as in open to everyone.

By everyone you mean... the public?

Give it up. You were wrong. He didn't release it to the public.

Did I claim it was unreasonable? I think it was a bit misguided for the reasons I've already given.

What was? You refuse to point at anything you actually are talking about, just asserting that there was "politics" that shouldn't have been in there. It's a short memo. It's right above. There's no reason to be vague other than to protect yourself against someone showing how it (if there is an "it") is reasonable and relevant to his point.
 
I believe it is true that all human populations out of Africa have around 3 % neanderthal DNA in them.

Sub Saharan Africans have no neanderthal DNA, thus africans are the true original homo sapiens.

And since neanderthal man was driven to extinction by the invasion of homo sapiens into there territory then aren't homo sapiens more intelligent?

And.....

Bacteria are the most prolific form of life in the known universe
 
This actually says something interesting to me about the genetic component of cogitative ability and suggests that insofar as there is a genetic component, it is likley to be an X chromosome thing and that Men inherit their Smarts, (or Dumbs) from their Mothers rather than their Fathers. (And with daughters being the average of both their parents genetic components rather than the extremes of the Mothers hence the slightly narrower SD for Women.)

I don't know if you're familiar with this or if you've just (impressively) stumbled across it on your own, but there was a study about fifteen years ago which showed that the predominant inheritable part of intelligence was derived from the intelligence of the mother.

So yes - if you want smart kids, marry a smart woman.
 
The issue with this whole thing is that people can’t acknowledge trait differences between races without assuming that means the whole race is better and so is therefore racist. Go look up skin cancer statistics in USA by race. White mans skin cancer rate is crap compared to others. Does that mean black people have superior skin when it comes to defence against skin cancer? Absolutely. Is it racist to acknowledge it? No. Is it racist to deduce that because black people have better skin protecting against skin cancer, that they then as a race are better as a whole? Yes... so acknowledging this difference is fine and not racist but any one that shows an advantage towards white people, or not black people, is immediately racist.

We are different, we have different genetic advantages/disadvantages due to our environments. And that’s the point... different, not superior/inferior as a whole. I don’t doubt that there are cognitive differences between races. In fact I’d be shocked if there weren’t. There’s fruit/food abound in Africa all year. Europe has winters. Different environments different needs. The idea that the only difference would be skin colour is just laughable.


Quite,

But back to the IQ thing.

I have always maintained that IQ does not measure intelligence at any fundamental level. The use of the word "Intelligence" is probabally a very unfortunate choice of name for all the reasons that this thread demonstrates.

"AB" or "Ability Quotient" might be more appropriate.

However, what it does do is measure a range of cognitive abilities. Some clearly achieved through education, and some which are more likley to have a genetic and therefore inherited aspect which are considered desirable (Essential even) to be able to perform satisfactorily socio-economically in a northern European culture based industrial style of society.

These tests have been designed to generate a mean score of 100 for this population As such ones score in the test over the range of 70-130 (Say) is a pretty good predictor of how well an individual will perform both socially and economically in this type of society.

If we have a group (Africans) who consistently perform poorly across the board in the test compared to Europeans (In the US the mean score for AA is around 85 AIUI) then it doesn't mean that they are somehow inferior or less intelligent. But it DOES mean, that as a group, across the board, they will tend to perform poorly socio-economically in northern European style industrial societys (And they do) because they simply do not possess the cogitative skills required to perform well.

conversely If we have a group that consistently perform rather better than the European mean (Asiatics), then again, it doesn't mean that they are superior or more intelligent. But it DOES mean that they will tend, as a group, to perform rather better across the board than your average northern European. (And they do, as indeed do Jews)

The nub of the entire argument however is over whether these differences are fixed somehow, genetic and and immutable (IE Black people will always as a group perform poorly whatever action is taken) Or genetic though mitigateable (Say systematically treading all people with dark skins for chronic vitamin D deficiency) ) or whether they are more cultural and therefore leave the possibility of overcoming the differences through education or through some other means.

But as ever, if nobody is willing to actually carry out a proper investigation on the matter then we will never know.

Incidentally.

I don’t doubt that there are cognitive differences between races. In fact I’d be shocked if there weren’t. There’s fruit/food abound in Africa all year. Europe has winters. Different environments different needs. The idea that the only difference would be skin colour is just laughable.

An anecdotal story from the days of Empire.

I cant remember when i read this. but the way the story goes. A African Colonial administrator new to the job had caught one of the locals committing some minor offense and had sentenced him to a short period of jail time. Like 14 days or something.

He was shocked at how the African convict took this, the poor man sank into a deep depression and basically began to waste away.

Eventually he realised why. For whatever reason the African simply couldn't see 14 days ahead and that the prison time would soon be over, he had concluded that this was going to be it for the rest of his life.

Now this is just an anecdote and I do not imagine it would apply quite so extremely across the board.

But I would imagine that if there are major inherited cogitative differences between northern Europeans and Africans, the ability to look far into the future might well be one of them. Survival in this environment involves being able to plan a year, or even more, ahead in a way that simply isn't necessary in an equatorial environment.

(Incidentally, people who commit violent crimes typically do so spontaneously and with little thought for the future consiquences of current actions (!) )
 
The little I have read about genetics recently suggests that about 3% of the non sub Saharan African human genome is inherited from Neanderthals. The degree which these genes have been split by each generation of reproduction suggests about 50,000-30,000 years ago for this cross breeding with 25,000 years ago being the most recent genetic evidence of cross breeding . Neanderthals probably died out because homo sapiens were able to outcompete them as the northern hemisphere left the last ice age. They were larger, more cold adapted and bred more slowly than we do.

Given that for the last 6,000 years human evolution has seen civilisation develop there are hypotheses that suggest that tolerance to disease associated with communal static living has been the most prevalent evolutionary driver, followed by tolerance to a diet rich in domesticated crops and dairy (Europeans only). We may be less smart than our hunter gatherer ancestors for all that we can fly through the air or manufacture at the microscopic level.

As to the OP I feel sorry for him, he is a victim of the current climate of political intimidation that pervades our society but particularly science and education. The organisation he has founded has cast him aside in fear of the opprobrium they would rightly expect if they acted with any dignity. It would be nice to see an organisation stand up for itself and its members and say "Dr Watson is entitled to his opinion and science is built on challenging the extant beliefs through the use of evidence. Whilst we don't share his hypothesis no progress will be made if fear to take part in open debate". Of course this will never happen, cowardice before the braying mob is the norm and integrity the exception.

The new religions are much like the old religions with their dogma and desire to destroy the heathen/infidel, will we find a new Martin Luther to usher in a new enlightenment though?
 
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