Paedophile hunters

[Hotwired]

And yet they used the evidence from the groups.
He is just trying to save face because the police are doing a crap job of things.

This is all in the article you're talking about.

The National Police Chiefs' Council lead for online child abuse activist groups, Assistant Chief Constable Dan Vajzovic, said vigilante groups often exceeded the boundaries of the law.

He warned some were "perpetrating offences including extortion, blackmail and exhibiting violence against those that they are targeting".

Mr Vajzovic said more than 250 prosecutions coming through the work of these groups was a positive, but pointed out that every month UK law enforcement agencies arrested more than 500 suspected child abusers.

"Some of those prosecutions may have diverted police resources from more significant offenders," he said.

"Overall the activity of these groups is not positive."

In fact I'm amazed you're managing to pull a positive outlook from that article seeing as it primarily slags off such vigilante groups for being what they are.

What does the NSPCC say in the same article.

The National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) said it also had some concerns about groups targeting suspected abusers.

"We have sympathy for those who worry about suspected abusers, want justice for children and feel frustrated that police can't do everything," a spokesperson for the charity said.

"However, despite their best intentions, their actions might put more children at risk of harm by driving offenders underground, endangering ongoing police work and the legal process, or result in innocent people being targeted."

The charity said protecting children must be the "ultimate priority".

"We need to know how forces and paedophile hunters can work together without jeopardising cases or potentially putting children in danger," the spokesperson said.

"If someone has concerns about child safety the best way they can help is to alert the police."

Seems they also believe the vigilante groups are not doing what is best.

The NSPCC is a responsible organisation, you fancy writing them off too.

 

[Nasher]

And yet they used the evidence from the groups.
He is just trying to save face because the police are doing a crap job of things.

I wonder how many cases they have sunk though...

 

[Hotwired]

I wonder how many cases they have sunk though...

They're vigilante groups. Being accountable and responsible is for real organisations.

 

[deuse]

This is all in the article you're talking about.



In fact I'm amazed you're managing to pull a positive outlook from that article seeing as it primarily slags off such vigilante groups for being what they are.

What does the NSPCC say in the same article.



Seems they also believe the vigilante groups are not doing what is best.

The NSPCC is a responsible organisation, you fancy writing them off too.

To beat a monster. One has to be a bigger monster. Not nice but true.
Again they are just saving face. In the real world it would be "The hunters done an amazing job, pity us police can't\wont do the same."
It's the same a the grooming gangs. The police never helped the poor girls till it was to late.

I wonder how many cases they have sunk though...

I have no idea. But since you posted it. Maybe you would know?

 

[Nasher]

Why would I know? I was wondering...

 

[Greebo]

My opinion on this is they should be working with the police directly and not publicly outing them (innocent until proven guilty) and not posting these videos on [insert social media / video platform here] until these people are convicted.

This shouldn't be a form of 'entertainment'

This. We have a local group who catch at least one per month and post the video of the capture on FB everytime. I am all for them catching these people and handing the evidence over to the Police but the continual videoing and outing doesnt sit comfortably with me. Its like trial by social media.

 

[sanaxe1]

2 people from my year in school have been caught by these groups in 2 separate stings. They were both sentenced to prison.

 

[AHarvey]

I agree with them right up until the "I want to be social media famous by confronting them on camera and publishing it"

People take this all as fact when in reality i could be anything but, the groups also lack the full investigation power of the police.

For instance, local businesses man I hate, I take some photos of him and start chatting to a local kid and use his photos. Next step is the meet, I contact the businessman regarding a proposal/sale/purchase and ask to meet in a set spot, arrange to meet the 'kid' there too and boom, peado hunters now have him on camera publishing it to the world.

There's no IP tracing at this point, no computer forensics etc. Instantly guilty for all to see.

The groups should do the groundwork and develop suspect profiles, then pass that over to the police to follow up, helping as needed. You get special police officers with police powers, there's no reason a specialist group can't be set up under the power of the police and working as volunteers.

 

[Felon]

I wonder how many cases they have sunk though...

Exactly, some (or most) of these people might be going to meet with children who are being trafficked by organised gangsters. So whilst these ranting vigilantes might be able to catch some of the 'clients' they're probably a country mile away, from actually trapping the people doing the trafficking, and make a mess of any ongoing surveillance or police operation.

This. We have a local group who catch at least one per month and post the video of the capture on FB every time. I am all for them catching these people and handing the evidence over to the Police but the continual videoing and outing doesn't sit comfortably with me. Its like trial by social media.

Me neither.

There's this carnal instinct in me which immediately wants to go "YEAH, PEDO SCUM DIE" etc etc. But then I stop and ask myself; I have absolutely no idea whether this person who's in the midst of having their life publicly dismembered live on TV, is actually guilty of anything at all, I simply cannot verify any of what I'm being shown, it could be true - it could be all wrong.

Imagine the sheer horror, of being wrongly targeted by one of these groups, just think about it deeply for a moment - it's terrifying.

At least when the police arrest you in relation to an allegation, the whole thing is dealt with clinically and calmly, with lawyers who ensure the correct standards are being met - and nothing is going to be released officially until charges have been drawn.

Unfortunately, these live-streaming vigilante groups mostly seem to amount to a bunch of blokes who don't know very much, they can't control their emotions and often become violent and abusive. They often misinterpret or don't understand the specific nuances of law, concerning things like citizens arrest and so on. all of this makes it more likely that a guilty sex offender might find a way out on a technicality, where if the police had done a proper job there would be fewer risks, and less chance of things going wrong.

 

[Roar87]

This. We have a local group who catch at least one per month and post the video of the capture on FB everytime. I am all for them catching these people and handing the evidence over to the Police but the continual videoing and outing doesnt sit comfortably with me. Its like trial by social media.

It's natural to feel sorry for them, most of them are pretty pathetic individuals, they aren't masterminded predators like Jimmy Saville, they're just weak stupid men who don't understand the severity of what they're doing. Never the less, in the vast majority of cases they're filming men who have committed a very damaging crime and would very happily go through with raping a minor. So yes, them being all sorry and upset on camera might make you feel bad and think it's wrong to shame them on social media, but they could easily avoid all that simply by not breaking the law.

 

[Dj_Jestar]

Perfect example of why we have due process and legal proceedings with the prime mandate of innocent until proven guilty provided courtesy of @Roar87, right there.

 

[mmj_uk]

The main problem as I see it is in live streaming 'stings', mistakes happen and as the article shows those falsely/maliciously accused can have their reputation damaged irreparably even if later to be found innocent. It's why our justice system is based on the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, it's the most sensible way to protect people from false/malicious allegations.

If all the hunters are doing is setting traps and quietly handing over evidence to the police then I don't see any real problem with it, it's the fact that they're publicly tarring people with a brush before the proper justice/legal process has taken place that needs to be stopped.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

Am I the only one who has a real problem with the way the word paedophile is used?

In the title of this thread and throughout the thread it implies guilt. Guilt of being attracted to children, which in itself is in no way a crime. I'm not picking on the OP here or the individuals in the thread as this same trend can be seen everywhere.

I actually feel sorry for the inviduals who don't act on these urges as I wouldn't want to have all these desires i could never act on. I wouldn't even be able to speak to anyone about it as its such a loaded word. I'm not arguing that molesting children is ok before some moron takes offense with what i said and tries to strawman me but theres a huge difference between having urges and acting on them.

Well the word in the context of these vigilante actions is often misused as it's usually teens being targeted, not pre-pubescent children. But you're right, those who don't act on their mental illness ought to be given treatment the same as anyone else, however I suspect the NHS already does that no? So if they're failing to get treatment or act upon their attraction, then they deserve no compassion. Just as I have no compassion for fatties who don't try to deal with their health issues.

 

[Roar87]

Perfect example of why we have due process and legal proceedings with the prime mandate of innocent until proven guilty provided courtesy of @Roar87, right there.

Their legal rights aren't being affected, they aren't being imprisoned or punished. These videos though I'm sure generate revenue so the groups can continue to operate. The Police clearly don't have the resources to have groups of Officers dedicated to doing this sort of stuff, it's not an ideal situation, but the alternative is to just have predators operating freely with no risk.

 

[Em3bbs]

I think I mentioned before, someone I used to know about 20 years ago got done by one of these groups. What I found a bit mean was that he'd gone onto a normal dating website and got matched with a '19 year old', then struck up an online relationship before the person said they were actually 15. I assume the photos he originally got were of someone who looked 19. Anyway he was an idiot not to knock it on the head at that point and was caught going to meet her.

They livestreamed it and of course immediately it was all over Facebook, with friends that I knew in the area sharing the video, and it appeared in the local Facebook groups as well. His family moved out of the area because of bullying his son was getting at secondary school plus his parents got death threats so there was a lot of collateral damage even before it made court 14 months later. He was found guilty and sentenced to a year.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Is it not a case of these vigilantes are pedophiles(or some kind of sex offender) in the making themselves. The guy that was murdered in prison recently was killed by a sex offender no less.

To me it's so obvious that these people see a reflection of themselves and some kind of tribal instinct leads them to attack them.

Crimes start of with a thought or idea often following a traumatic event or series of events when younger. The crimes multiple till you reach the level of blood sucking vampire.

I always find it hard to blame anyone for their actions whatever they're doing, it's largely the media and "system" that creates these people in the first place. I doubt they can be cured without divine intervention though.

I don't know how you jump to that conclusion. I always thought it was racists, far right, unionists trying to catch muslims mainly but they also happen to catch a few of their own now and again as well as other races.

 

[StriderX]

Vigilantism that turns into harassment should be a chargeable offence, far too many stories about entrapment and false positives to let it continue, what next they start roaming gang patrols?

**** them, they're getting in the way and it can only get worse, anyone supporting the subversion of due process can also **** off. If you won't support more taxation for more Police, you can't then just turn that around to say that random people can just do the police's job for them.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

I think I mentioned before, someone I used to know about 20 years ago got done by one of these groups. What I found a bit mean was that he'd gone onto a normal dating website and got matched with a '19 year old', then struck up an online relationship before the person said they were actually 15. I assume the photos he originally got were of someone who looked 19. Anyway he was an idiot not to knock it on the head at that point and was caught going to meet her.

They livestreamed it and of course immediately it was all over Facebook, with friends that I knew in the area sharing the video, and it appeared in the local Facebook groups as well. His family moved out of the area because of bullying his son was getting at secondary school plus his parents got death threats so there was a lot of collateral damage even before it made court 14 months later. He was found guilty and sentenced to a year.

That sounds like entrapment. I mean how can they pretend to be 19 then right before the meet after baiting them and teasing them along for ages then say they are 15. I suppose he agreed to turn up to the meet which is wrong but even still but that just seems the wrong way to do it IMO. The guy was told one thing then right before he turns up was told another.

 

[PermaChanged]

That's like the classic picking up a girl in a nightclub that you have to be over 18 to attend, taking them home and bedding them to then find out they're 15 later. I've heard of this happening locally, resulting in prosecution and to cap things off, the girl then turned up to court wearing their school uniform.

 

[Em3bbs]

That sounds like entrapment. I mean how can they pretend to be 19 then right before the meet after baiting them and teasing them along for ages then say they are 15. I suppose he agreed to turn up to the meet which is wrong but even still but that just seems the wrong way to do it IMO. The guy was told one thing then right before he turns up was told another.

I think it was more the fact once she said she was 15 he carried on the conversations/explicit chat over a period of time and then finally went to meet her, I'm guessing because he'd already gotten too far into the relationship to want to end it. But it's no excuse - he should have ended it as soon as she said 15.

Edit: Googling the case, it seems she actually told him early on in the conversation her 'real' age, so he should definitely have bailed then. I guess the only saving grace is he hadn't set out to go after someone that age, and thought he had matched with a 19 year old on a legit website.