EV general discussion

[Jonnycoupe]

Convenience is funny thing. It’s like post rationalisation of an error, where having to go to a fuel station is more convenient than plugging it at home. It’s borderline purchase justification syndrome stuff.

 

[Journey]

yeah ok your right I’m wrong. Is that the satisfication you are craving?

FML I'll quote myself..

All you can do is guess, as neither you or I can see the exact future.

I literally said I can't predict the future, then you are telling me I can't.

you think you have by predicting the future and have your own take on it. Please don’t confuse you opinion with fact.

Satisfaction of you bothering to read the conversation between two posters fully prior to commenting.

Anyhow don't want to get into an argument, that was not intended, enjoy the rest of your night.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Dude you corrected me. All I was suggesting the model of scrapped cars today might be quite different to now with batteries part of lifecycle recovery both not allowing them making it to scrapyards, particularly crashed ones, and the likely demand for industrial storage.

 

[Journey]

Dude you corrected me.

Quite rightly as well since I'd literally said it was a prediction not a fact.

 

[jamoor]

How is this the case? An ICE can be recharged in seconds giving up to 700 miles range in the process. Once filled it generates its own power.

For the driver, EV will never be as convenient as this, therefore if drivers are to be incentivised to reduce emissions through the use of an EV it has to be made fiscally beneficial - which is why there is no company car tax on pure EV.

This is why no government will make EV usage as expensive as ice usage, because people just won't want one if they do that.

my ev takes precisely fifteen seconds to fill and that’s the time it takes for me to plug in it at home. I don’t know anyone with a petrol station at home and even if someone did it would take more than fifteen seconds to fill.

Going to a petrol station now just seems a ludicrous concept. You should own an ev before assuming what it’s like, it’s like those people that looked at the original iPhone and laughed as it has no buttons and will be useful, once you’ve used one you will see that it’s progress.

 

[[TW]Fox]

my ev takes precisely fifteen seconds to fill

No it doesn't.

 

[jamoor]

No it doesn't.

Yes it does, it takes me fifteen seconds to plug in. That’s the time taken out of my day to fill it.
The petrol car however takes a lot more time out of my day.

I don’t need to supervise it charging however I need to supervise a car filling up.


Its a lot more convenient to wake up to a full tank every day than having to go to a petrol station.

 

[Rroff]

How is this the case? An ICE can be recharged in seconds giving up to 700 miles range in the process. Once filled it generates its own power.

For the driver, EV will never be as convenient as this, therefore if drivers are to be incentivised to reduce emissions through the use of an EV it has to be made fiscally beneficial - which is why there is no company car tax on pure EV.

This is why no government will make EV usage as expensive as ice usage, because people just won't want one if they do that.

New battery tech is in development which potentially allows for similar levels of convenience if the infrastructure is there such as https://newatlas.com/energy/samsung-solid-state-ev-battery/ while I can't find the faster charging details quickly but with recent developments the increased safety was allowing for around an order of magnitude faster charging.

Yes it does, it takes me fifteen seconds to plug in. That’s the time taken out of my day to fill it.
The petrol car however takes a lot more time out of my day.

I don’t need to supervise it charging however I need to supervise a car filling up.


Its a lot more convenient to wake up to a full tank every day than having to go to a petrol station.

That only works when you can leave it for however long charging and don't need to be getting on again a few minutes later.

 

[jamoor]

New battery tech is in development which potentially allows for similar levels of convenience if the infrastructure is there such as https://newatlas.com/energy/samsung-solid-state-ev-battery/ while I can't find the faster charging details quickly but with recent developments the increased safety was allowing for around an order of magnitude faster charging.



That only works when you can leave it for however long charging and don't need to be getting on again a few minutes later.

Of course.
I do around 11k a year, 7500 are commuting to and from work so the vast majority of the time my car is parked at work where I charge for free or at home where I charge for very little. I’m willing to stop for a 15 minute charge on a long journey if it makes my life easier week in week out.

 

[Haggisman]

Of course.
I do around 11k a year, 7500 are commuting to and from work so the vast majority of the time my car is parked at work where I charge for free or at home where I charge for very little. I’m willing to stop for a 15 minute charge on a long journey if it makes my life easier week in week out.

This is what anti-EVers seem to miss.

I agree, an EV is less convenient...

...on the 1%* of journeys where you need to drive more than the range in one go (and have no intention of stopping to go to the toilet/grab a coffee/give the kids/dog 15 minutes to run around/have some lunch/dinner).

For the other 99% of the time, it's far more convenient as you just park up as usual and plug in instead of having to make a special trip to the petrol station and waste time queuing and then standing there getting petrol/diesel & other people's hand-grease all over your fingers whilst filling up.




* Of course there are going to be people who fall outside of this, but given that the average commute is ~10 miles and average annual mileage is >10k, it's likely that this is true for a large proportion of the population.

 

[jamoor]

This is what anti-EVers seem to miss.

I agree, an EV is less convenient...

...on the 1%* of journeys where you need to drive more than the range in one go (and have no intention of stopping to go to the toilet/grab a coffee/give the kids/dog 15 minutes to run around/have some lunch/dinner).

For the other 99% of the time, it's far more convenient as you just park up as usual and plug in instead of having to make a special trip to the petrol station and waste time queuing and then standing there getting petrol/diesel & other people's hand-grease all over your fingers whilst filling up.




* Of course there are going to be people who fall outside of this, but given that the average commute is ~10 miles and average annual mileage is >10k, it's likely that this is true for a large proportion of the population.

Indeed doing 11k a year at 20mpg means I would have to buy 2500 litres of fuel, with a 60 litre tank you would fill up 41 times


At fifteen minutes per fill it’s ten hours of your life wasted standing at a petrol pump every year.

 

[jpaul]

for 2nd life on batteries as storage - government is not really clear on what mechanism will enable electric home heating/cooking to work when the wind isn't blowing, too.
the mine-shaft (sky scraper?) potential energy idea is good, but limited capacity, but,
centralized, rather than home storage has got to be more economic, so I don't see the massive future for that battery 2nd life
so - what is the salvaging cost, versus manufacture, for reclaiming the goodies inside.

At fifteen minutes per fill it’s ten hours of your life wasted standing at a petrol pump every year.

that examples not particularly good .. if you, just did a 300mile ev car trip once a month, the 10hours would be eaten into.
(even though, of course, an ev overnight home charge facility eleviates most ICE stops)

 

[Haggisman]

Indeed doing 11k a year at 20mpg means I would have to buy 2500 litres of fuel, with a 60 litre tank you would fill up 41 times


At fifteen minutes per fill it’s ten hours of your life wasted standing at a petrol pump every year.

To be fair, 20mpg is very much on the low side, although even with a more realistic 30-40mpg, it's still 5+ hours

that examples not particularly good .. if you, just did a 300mile ev car trip once a month, the 10hours would be eaten into.
(even though, of course, an ev overnight home charge facility eleviates most ICE stops)

That depends on whether you spend the ~1hr charge time standing around or going to do something you were going to do anyway.

You can't nip into the shops, go to the loo or have coffee/lunch whilst queuing for the pump or filling the car (unless you count shovelling a sandwich into your mouth one-handed as lunch ).

 

[Chrisc]

It’s a cool looking car, if you’re only doing short, town based commutes it should be ok but is expensive for that.

Yeah, the monthly repayments are quite decent, around £300. From what ive seen though, actually charging EV's can be quite expensive.

 

[Russinating]

Booked a camping trip in Pembrokeshire on a campsite that has absolutely no electricity supply, showers heated by solar etc. Thought it'd be a good test for the Model 3 SR+ but turns out there's nothing to worry about.

Could get there without stopping for 130 miles/2h 20min (90% down to 19%). But we can stop at Bridgend where there's a Tesla charger, midpoint so a likely toilet/coffee stop anyway. 11 mins of charge and we'll arrive on a less-risky 40%.

There's then a free EV charger at the National Trust car park for the beach that we're visting anyway, and despite the situation at the campsite I emailed ahead and the owner has said "as for the electric car that’s not a problem, we can accommodate you on the farm if you need to plug it in overnight. Only a 2 min drive away from the campsite. We can work out the electricity cost but it’s fine for us for you to leave it here." Plus we can use it to charge our blow up mattresses and phones every day without the engine being 'on'. Or just play video games or watch Netflix if it's raining...

Cost of charging at the campsite will be max £4 (25kw * 16p) but I'll probably give them a tenner to say thanks.

 

[jamoor]

Booked a camping trip in Pembrokeshire on a campsite that has absolutely no electricity supply, showers heated by solar etc. Thought it'd be a good test for the Model 3 SR+ but turns out there's nothing to worry about.

Could get there without stopping for 130 miles/2h 20min (90% down to 19%). But we can stop at Bridgend where there's a Tesla charger, midpoint so a likely toilet/coffee stop anyway. 11 mins of charge and we'll arrive on a less-risky 40%.

There's then a free EV charger at the National Trust car park for the beach that we're visting anyway, and despite the situation at the campsite I emailed ahead and the owner has said "as for the electric car that’s not a problem, we can accommodate you on the farm if you need to plug it in overnight. Only a 2 min drive away from the campsite. We can work out the electricity cost but it’s fine for us for you to leave it here." Plus we can use it to charge our blow up mattresses and phones every day without the engine being 'on'. Or just play video games or watch Netflix if it's raining...

Cost of charging at the campsite will be max £4 (25kw * 16p) but I'll probably give them a tenner to say thanks.

this is another point,

1) it takes 40 minutes to charge to 90%, this is true but if you have charging at your destination then you only need to charge enough to get you to your destination. I once stopped for 3 minutes as that’s all I needed to get me home where I went and plugged in.


Getting stuck in crawling traffic is actually good for your wallet as it uses less energy.

 

[jamoor]

Yeah, the monthly repayments are quite decent, around £300. From what ive seen though, actually charging EV's can be quite expensive.

Yeah, the monthly repayments are quite decent, around £300. From what ive seen though, actually charging EV's can be quite expensive.

If you charge away from home. 90% of charging should be done at home or work or similar rather than public charging.

If you don’t have charging then don’t get one imo.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

So annoying when people deliberately misrepresent positions in regards the ICE vs EV thing. It happens on both sides but seems far more ridiculous from the ICE crowd frankly (and I say this as an ICE driver and household)

The only relevant thing in regards "energying up" is how long you need to supervise it for. I find people vastly underestimate how long filling an ICE takes, I guess some will always fill up at remote stations etc (tend to cost more) or at odd times, but filling up at peak type times, I often find its far more like 15-20 minutes than a few seconds. Nothing more annoying than pulling up behind someone just walking into the shop to wait 10 minutes whilst they try to do a weeks shopping in there.

We are going to have to adapt and change mindsets, and the biggest impact will be seen by those doing high mileage and long runs since thats the biggest change from ICE to EV. But those are actually the minority. every stat published confirms this, average commute, average miles per annum etc. For every 60k mile per year driver there are multiple doing 10k or so.

Its always worth considering the opposite in situations, so imagine if we were used to a full state EV, with wide ranging options for recharging etc (I dont think anyone disputes it will be wide ranging eventually its just how we get there).
So take a position where people could easily charge, "just about anywhere". For the vast majority the vast majority of the time they didn't even think about it, since charging so widely available it was no different to being able to get a drink.
You tell all those people that its going to change, your going to take that away, your going to enforce only very limited options to refill, and some of them would not be 24/7. The majority wouldn't think it sounded very good would they.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

How would they force people to move over when the time comes?

Financially I couldn't afford to buy an electric car and I don't really see that changing. If they offered a scrappage scheme it still would leave way too much money to pay out.

There is a reason people like me drive old bangers.

There's the fuel saving to take into account.

If like me you are going to be saving £100 a month on fuel. That's an extra £100 per month that can go to fund the car.

Others will save significantly more as we only do a combined 9k a year across 2 cars.

So if I'm willing to spend say £200 a month on a car that can now become £300 a month for an electric car.

Bare in mind electric cars have less moving parts, nothing really needs replacing or repairing bar tyres.

Take those savings into accounts then people can probably put an extra £150 minimum on top of their normal car budget. Likely a lot more.

 

[jamoor]

There's the fuel saving to take into account.

If like me you are going to be saving £100 a month on fuel. That's an extra £100 per month that can go to fund the car.

Others will save significantly more as we only do a combined 9k a year across 2 cars.

So if I'm willing to spend say £200 a month on a car that can now become £300 a month for an electric car.

Bare in mind electric cars have less moving parts, nothing really needs replacing or repairing bar tyres.

Take those savings into accounts then people can probably put an extra £150 minimum on top of their normal car budget. Likely a lot more.

Yep all the fuel saving and go towards depreciation on a shiny new ev.
Anyone that owns a company or has some sort of co car scheme is laughing all the way to the bank.