EV general discussion

b0rn2sk8 said:
Are you saying the Polestar 2 is also bad because it’s made in China?
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No because there isn't a much cheaper ICE variant to ignore whilst people wax lyrical about how cheap the EV version is.

Plus the Polestar 2 is just a Volco XC40 Recharge off their CMA platform - good credentials.
 
Firestar_3x said:
Potential of 20k Tesla in 3 years time.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-54244612

Interesting if possible.
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He totally made that up on the spot during the amateur Q&A session last night, taking all the questions with his gurus stook behind saying nothing as the questions were never passed over by Elon. Meanwhile talking about a battery tech they haven't yet worked out of its prototype phase yet. 3 years would be incredible if true and the Model 3 was the $35k car ...dunno if that ever really happened in the UK for the BBC to construct a similar narrative from that Model 2 sentence last night.

Interesting stuff but battery day seems to land a bit flat with whats coming.
 
Jonnycoupe said:
3 years would be incredible if true
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3 years is a long time in the world of Tesla, especially at the pace they are carrying forward so far. I'd love to see other battery manufacturers doing the same thing, as after all, that is the goal, to get the movement to sustainable energy storage and production there faster.
 
vanpeebles said:
What are the parts of an electric car that are not made using products of the petrochemical industry?
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Granted and its not automotive its most manufacturing relies somewhat on fossil fuels.

There is a difference however in areas where you need them and you can do without.
Just because we need fossils to produce the product it doesn't mean we need to use them to fuel the usage.

We have to transition off at some point, eventually cost will force it. Thats unless you subscribe to the the earth will keep generating oil mindset.
 
Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
We have to transition off at some point, eventually cost will force it. Thats unless you subscribe to the the earth will keep generating oil mindset.
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This is a risky reply as it could go well off topic;

Legislation and the goal for carbon neutrality will force it, not cost, at least not in our or a good few generations lifetimes. Look at how proven oil reserves have grown over time, exploration technology advances all of the time.

https://www.indexmundi.com/energy/?product=oil&graph=reserves
 
Jonnycoupe said:
He totally made that up on the spot during the amateur Q&A session last night,
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agree completely amateurish - my impression , now, even worse after listening, in entirety https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwBiBpzIBdU
he needs to delegate.

Although China seems to be making good quality parts for eu manufacturers to their quality requirements, I'm not sure the products designed there yet meet the same rigor;
carbon zero goals, encompassing complete product lifecycle (a car that lasts 60% of eu specced one should be penalised in taxes) may also be trailing,
but politics Trump/Eu may well determine china's future potential.
The eu negotiators, might be concerned about uk subsidising industry, but compared to china ?
 
He has mentioned a cheap hatch back a few times in the past so I wouldn’t say he made it up completely on the spot. That said I don’t think he has mentioned a price before.

I would also take the ‘3 years’ with the appropriate level of salt and then add on Elon time. Especially given they haven’t built 3 actual vehicles they have previously announced and are already well overdue.
 
[TW]Fox said:
15 years ago these people would have had a City Rover and been happy about it so not sure what this adds to the argument.
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What actually is your argument Fox? Not everyone is a badge snob with £40k to spend on a BMW... Some people are happy with a relatively cheap and basic car that fits their needs.

This type of car clearly isn't targeted at people like you, but for others it's ideal, so I don't understand why you feel the need to constantly comment as if it's completely pointless? Of course it's never going to compete with a more premium marque, but then it isn't trying to as it's targeted at a completely different market segment.

For what it offers, it seems like a decent option (on paper at least) - I've asked you a couple of times what similar car you'd opt for instead, but you've yet to suggest an alternative.
 
Jez said:
This is a risky reply as it could go well off topic;

Legislation and the goal for carbon neutrality will force it, not cost, at least not in our or a good few generations lifetimes. Look at how proven oil reserves have grown over time, exploration technology advances all of the time.

https://www.indexmundi.com/energy/?product=oil&graph=reserves
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I agree sort of but, our choice is likely to ween us off it before cost becomes the most prohibitive issue.

The fact we know or constantly find more is a red herring, but in order to start the conversation you always need to ask the question (because there are some who thin the faster we extract the oil the faster the earth will make more, and you cant have sensible conversation with that)

So assuming you agree there is a finite amount, we just dont know what it is. We dont know what we dont know.
What we do know is that when you have a finite resource, using up that resource means you have less left.

Note I didn't say we would run out in x years, just eventually.

Then logically you will agree eventually that finite amount will be getting towards the point of running out, so it will become scarce and if we havent transitioned off or arent working towards that it will rapidly increase in cost as people get ever more desperate and willing to pay for the last bit.

I tend to think we would probably wipe out humans before that point, but its a bit mute since it wasn't my point and I think somewhat unrepresentative (by the other guy) to make out that using fuel for manufacturing somehow equates to usage.
We will use loads of products from petrochem to make sky boxes, we dont think we should fule them with petrochems as well ;)
 
Haggisman said:
What actually is your argument Fox? Not everyone is a badge snob with £40k to spend on a BMW... Some people are happy with a relatively cheap and basic car that fits their needs.
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It's £25k, is it not relatively cheap. That is my point.

It's a cheap bargain bucket car that with 10k added to it's price.
 
If the sum at the end of the ownership period works out the same as the £15k car, then it is no cheaper or more expensive, it's just money spent in a different order.

Round 3 of "but you have to pay £10k more upfront", when you actually don't, and very few people will.
 
Yup, need to add on a 10% tariff, 20% VAT and shipping.

People were freaking out when the pricing for Mode 3 was released and it was literally painful having to explain it. It was also painful having to explain that no one paid the advertised price in the US either as they need to add taxes and registration fees on top.
 
[TW]Fox said:
It's £25k, is it not relatively cheap. That is my point.

It's a cheap bargain bucket car that with 10k added to it's price.
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Then your point is flawed as you aren't taking running costs and depreciation into account.

Depending on your mileage, if you're spending £150-200/month on petrol then a £15k ICE will cost you that extra £10k in fuel over 5 years.

At that point the difference has paid for itself.

Take into account the VED savings (not a huge amount, but still almost £1k)
Take into account that servicing an EV is usually cheaper (again, not a huge amount, but probably £2-300)
Take into account the depreciation (after 5 years a £25k EV is almost certainly going to be worth more than a £15k ICE)

Still waiting for your suggestion of a similar ICE which will have a similar TCO?
 
Haggisman said:
Still waiting for your suggestion of a similar ICE which will have a similar TCO?
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The petrol version of the same car? The point all along.

Who is spending 200 quid a month on fuel for cars like this? Where did that number come from? 10k a year is about 92 quid a month at 45mpg. If you're on the road doing 20k a year you probably won't want to be doing it in a car like this.

I don't dispute that a 25k EV will be worth more at year 5 than a 15k ice equivalent but will it be worth 10k more? I somewhat doubt that. Are you saying that at year 5 you'd have to spend 4k for the ice but over 14k for the ev variant?

The savings just don't add up enough to justify the 10k premium and I can't imagine many people who enjoy refinement etc would pick a cheap MG so that argument doesn't seem to work either.
 
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