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Minecraft Ray Tracing Benchmarked | RX 6800 Series And RTX 30 Series

But if you want to promote a product you will make statements like that. Like for example if someone gets paid to promote AMD he will tell you that he received thousands of messages asking him to test which card is better at 1080p gaming or 1440p or which card can overclock more, or which card can run Valhalla better. :)
It is just a claim. It does not mean it is true. And again, he knows and they all know that AMD cards will have problems running older titles with RT. Because they were all made to get the best from Nvidia hardware and Nvidia was involved in implementing RT in those games.

That would make a lot of sense if WCCF had not been showing RDNA2 in favourable light for it's rasterisation performance. Personnaly, and I can't be the only one, I wanted to see RT performance before my 3080 arrived as I would have happily switched if RDNA2 had been better.
 
You made the right choice since Nvidia RT is stronger and you also have DLSS. All i said was that we can't judge AMD RT performance based on older games optimized for Nvidia hardware.
Or let me explain this way: A game optimized to run on Big Navi will not give you the same FPS performance that you'll get from the same game optimized to run on Nvidia. But it will give you more FPS than running the game optimized for Nvidia on Big Navi.
So really unless AMD brings a form of DLSS, if one wants to play RT games at 4k or even 1440p ultra, there is only one choice for this generation of video cards and that is Nvidia.
But that guy from WCCF is dishonest because he does not talk about these things.
 
The video showed a very playable 1440p 60+ FPS without upscaling.
In minecraft. :|

When people see full path tracing in games with high end graphics then RT will get people's attention. I am pretty confident that when that happens, Ampere and RDNA 2 will be irrelevant in the graphics space.
 
@Wrinkly Cards don't stay 'cool and quiet' because they are at 60fps. If that is it maxing out at 60fps, it is gonna be maxing out, the frame rate really doesn't come into it.

And again, these are 3xxx series cards. They are absolutely better at ray tracing that AMD. no one is saying otherwise. If you want RT, get a 3xxx series card. If you don't care so much about RT get an AMD card. Maybe other factors like DLSS will sway you, but right now, I don't believe they have enough games to make it worthwhile.
 
In minecraft. :|

When people see full path tracing in games with high end graphics then RT will get people's attention. I am pretty confident that when that happens, Ampere and RDNA 2 will be irrelevant in the graphics space.

In Minecraft and Quake 2. The complexity of a scene alters the performance by very little when using path tracing. I would like to see a render plugin from Nvidia that would allow developers to give such an option.
 
@Wrinkly Cards don't stay 'cool and quiet' because they are at 60fps. If that is it maxing out at 60fps, it is gonna be maxing out, the frame rate really doesn't come into it.

And again, these are 3xxx series cards. They are absolutely better at ray tracing that AMD. no one is saying otherwise. If you want RT, get a 3xxx series card. If you don't care so much about RT get an AMD card. Maybe other factors like DLSS will sway you, but right now, I don't believe they have enough games to make it worthwhile.

At 1440p/60FPS capped I don't notice any extra noise running Quake 2 RTX or Minecraft RTX. This is possibly due to the RT cores taking up so little of the GPU which still has an efficient cooler attached. RDR2 on the other hand does raise temps/noise with the settings maxed out.

I'm guessing DLSS also helps in reducing the GPU workload, again helping with temps/noise. I'll test it out when Afterburner becomes stable.
 
In Minecraft and Quake 2. The complexity of a scene alters the performance by very little when using path tracing. I would like to see a render plugin from Nvidia that would allow developers to give such an option.
I have heard this a lot but I haven't seen any testing to prove this. Considering that one of the optimisations that devs are doing for the consoles is culling certain objects from RT reflections I have trouble believing this statement to be true.

The other big one is textures. Do you still retain this performance when your looking at close to 100 textures per scene?
What about material roughness? Is the performance still there once we remove the pristine reflection? Or are we going to have put up with every metallic surface being chrome? What about non metallic surfaces, how are we going to get the light reflecting properly off of that if the roughness options are 1 and 0.
 
At 1440p/60FPS capped I don't notice any extra noise running Quake 2 RTX or Minecraft RTX. This is possibly due to the RT cores taking up so little of the GPU which still has an efficient cooler attached. RDR2 on the other hand does raise temps/noise with the settings maxed out.

I'm guessing DLSS also helps in reducing the GPU workload, again helping with temps/noise. I'll test it out when Afterburner becomes stable.


If it is a capped rate then, I agree with you. (I had assumed you meant 60fps average.)
 
I have heard this a lot but I haven't seen any testing to prove this. Considering that one of the optimisations that devs are doing for the consoles is culling certain objects from RT reflections I have trouble believing this statement to be true.

The other big one is textures. Do you still retain this performance when your looking at close to 100 textures per scene?
What about material roughness? Is the performance still there once we remove the pristine reflection? Or are we going to have put up with every metallic surface being chrome? What about non metallic surfaces, how are we going to get the light reflecting properly off of that if the roughness options are 1 and 0.

For the implementation in Quake 2 RTX it is true - I've been playing with custom maps some of which exceed the complexity of an entire stock map in one scene - there is around 1-4% slowdown over the stock maps scaling the level of detail up more than 64x. Where things slow down is if you increase the complexity of the path tracing features themselves i.e. extra bounce passes or advanced modelling of caustics, etc.

One of the problems with current implementations is that you have all the work load of traditional rendering then a large part of the overhead for path tracing just for some token features combined.

EDIT: The other problem is with reflections and using ray tracing to cast shadows you have very little issues with denoising, etc. actually lighting a scene with path tracing really needs the hardware to do 2-4x current ray budgets at 60FPS to get an ideal compromise - specular especially is really hard to get ideal results with right now.
 
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For the implementation in Quake 2 RTX it is true - I've been playing with custom maps some of which exceed the complexity of an entire stock map in one scene - there is around 1-4% slowdown over the stock maps scaling the level of detail up more than 64x.
That is very vague.
64x what? Polygons? Objects? Total texture count?
How are you defining level of detail?
How are the maps more complex? Is it an increase mesh density or objects on screen?
How well does it work with displacement and normal maps? (I'm especially curious about the performance impact with normal maps)

side note what is the total polygon count and texture count for these scenes?
 
That is an approximate from increased geometry detail, increased number of objects and increased use of materials which have chrome or glass types, etc.

Most materials in Q2 RTX have a normal map - about half are actually used for bump mapping but the alpha stage of the normal map is used to set the metallic level of a surface. I've not actually benchmarked it but it doesn't seem to unduly trouble the render performance if you use them extensively in a scene.

Not sure what impact more advanced displacement techniques and/or tessellation would have.

Texture count seems to make little difference depending a bit on the complexity of the materials - I use a plain medium grey texture when building and performance is only a tiny bit different compared to when the scene is detailed with 30-40 materials.

Something that seems hugely costly is updating the position of the sun which is handled with a higher level of quality compared to other emissive sources with additional bounces and atmospherics, etc. - if you have an active day/night cycle it halves performance.
 
I find it pretty hard to believe that, scene complexity has little impact on performance. Is it because it uses a low number of bounce passes? How many bounce passes are used? Or is there significant optimisations going on under the hood to enable this small performance loss?
Also what resolution of textures do you use? Does the resolution affect performance?
 
I find it pretty hard to believe that, scene complexity has little impact on performance. Is it because it uses a low number of bounce passes? How many bounce passes are used? Or is there significant optimisations going on under the hood to enable this small performance loss?
Also what resolution of textures do you use? Does the resolution affect performance?

Path tracing uses a lot of optimisations - lots and lots of optimisations which is beyond the scope of my working knowledge but it tends to work with a set ray budget per pixel and a lot of rules about how they are used.

The biggest impact by far is screen resolution.

I've not benchmarked textures but I'm using plenty of 1024x and 2048x textures without any significant impact.
 
I find it pretty hard to believe that, scene complexity has little impact on performance. Is it because it uses a low number of bounce passes? How many bounce passes are used? Or is there significant optimisations going on under the hood to enable this small performance loss?
Also what resolution of textures do you use? Does the resolution affect performance?


This is a misunderstanding of how path tracing works.


The number os rays required is mostly dependent on the screen resolution. At a particular resolution to get a certain quality after denoising, peehaps ypu have to shoot 1 million primary rays and eaxh of tjose will on average have 2 bounces, so you have 3 millions ray-intersection tests. Thi is the dsme whether the environment is a a simple cube, or has millions of polygons. The number of rays is the same. This is kind lf the whole big deal about ray tracing, it doesn't suffer from scaling issues in regards to scene complexity.

Each ray does have to determine which geometry to intersect with, but this is computed efficiently with a bounding Volume Hierarchy, which is a recursive sub-division of the geometry in a tree. This allows logarithmic lookup.

So for a simple scene with 100,000 tris, the cost might be at most 5 units of time. For a scene 10x nore complex snd 1Million tris that increases to only 6 time units, for 10million tris that is only 7 etc.
Further, the natural world doesn't have uniform spacing of geometry. When modeled in a computer game, many lf the on scene triangles are concentrated in dmall area suxh as a character. Any ray that doesn't go close to such nodels will skip millilions of triangles tests in a quick bounding box test. All of this is conducted in hardware with lots of optimization.

Same for texture detail. When a ray intersects a triangle itvjust has to get the interpolated texel at that point in the texture space, which is irrelevant to texture size (but will increase bandwidth).



Where things get interesting is the surface reflectivity. Completely matt surfaces don't reflect light so there are no bounced rays. Snooth reflective materials like a pool of water have a single reflection path, so to get good results you only have to shoot 1 ray, because every ray will reflect the same. But Inbetween the 2 the rays get reflected in random directions, so to get good quality, enough rays have to be cast so the reflected secondary rays sample the scene.

This is where the scene optimization comes in. Nothing to do with the geometry complexity but how many additional rays are required. That can be adapted by changing the amount lf slightly reflective materials are used in a scene. This is also why sonw lf the early games used lots of glass and puddles of water as the reflections are simple. More natural scenes with balanced reflections requires some more hands on tunibg lf material properties.


There are then also the usual optimizations. e.g in a very long corridor a lihht thst is around several corners coilf in theory have a light ray that bounces lf multiple walls pibg ponging down the corridor and around corners to end up at the camera (and the ssme goes fo any material thst happens to be on the ray path way downstream). The reality is the rays get attentued enough that their statistical impact on the render is insignificant. so as is standard for computer games, things a long llbg way away out of sight are pruned from the computation, even if theoretically they have a non-zero addition to the lighting.
 
We knew when the 6800XT launched minecraft was bad, this was pointed out numberous times in the RDNA2 thread by the usual lot multiple times.

No idea why this needed a new thread.

We know the 6XXX series is worse in RT than the 3XXX series, no one but nvidia shills seems to care about this and no AMD fans are talking contrary to the point.

We seem to come around to this over and over.
 
We knew when the 6800XT launched minecraft was bad, this was pointed out numberous times in the RDNA2 thread by the usual lot multiple times.

No idea why this needed a new thread.

We know the 6XXX series is worse in RT than the 3XXX series, no one but nvidia shills seems to care about this and no AMD fans are talking contrary to the point.

We seem to come around to this over and over.

Who is this we? I didn't know RDNA2 was this bad. I actually hoped AMD were holding back some performance during the launch as the kept silent on RT.
 
Who is this we? I didn't know RDNA2 was this bad. I actually hoped AMD were holding back some performance during the launch as the kept silent on RT.

It was raised multiple times on the RDNA2 thread and minecraft was used in multiple reviews, including some of the bigger sites / YTers.
 
It was raised multiple times on the RDNA2 thread and minecraft was used in multiple reviews, including some of the bigger sites / YTers.

I missed it then as I was only watching the RDNA2 thread over the last few weeks while wating on my 3080. This was the first time I had seen a decent RT comparison between RDNA2 and Ampere. My own performance expectation was based off of RDNA2's design until then. I've not played much Minecraft, though I'd describe it as best played with friends. So not the sort of video I would have searched YT for.

Perhaps we need a seperate thread containing such benchmarks as it will only get worse once Intel shows up.
 
This is a misunderstanding of how path tracing works.


The number os rays required is mostly dependent on the screen resolution. At a particular resolution to get a certain quality after denoising, peehaps ypu have to shoot 1 million primary rays and eaxh of tjose will on average have 2 bounces, so you have 3 millions ray-intersection tests. Thi is the dsme whether the environment is a a simple cube, or has millions of polygons. The number of rays is the same. This is kind lf the whole big deal about ray tracing, it doesn't suffer from scaling issues in regards to scene complexity.

Each ray does have to determine which geometry to intersect with, but this is computed efficiently with a bounding Volume Hierarchy, which is a recursive sub-division of the geometry in a tree. This allows logarithmic lookup.

So for a simple scene with 100,000 tris, the cost might be at most 5 units of time. For a scene 10x nore complex snd 1Million tris that increases to only 6 time units, for 10million tris that is only 7 etc.
Further, the natural world doesn't have uniform spacing of geometry. When modeled in a computer game, many lf the on scene triangles are concentrated in dmall area suxh as a character. Any ray that doesn't go close to such nodels will skip millilions of triangles tests in a quick bounding box test. All of this is conducted in hardware with lots of optimization.

Same for texture detail. When a ray intersects a triangle itvjust has to get the interpolated texel at that point in the texture space, which is irrelevant to texture size (but will increase bandwidth).



Where things get interesting is the surface reflectivity. Completely matt surfaces don't reflect light so there are no bounced rays. Snooth reflective materials like a pool of water have a single reflection path, so to get good results you only have to shoot 1 ray, because every ray will reflect the same. But Inbetween the 2 the rays get reflected in random directions, so to get good quality, enough rays have to be cast so the reflected secondary rays sample the scene.

This is where the scene optimization comes in. Nothing to do with the geometry complexity but how many additional rays are required. That can be adapted by changing the amount lf slightly reflective materials are used in a scene. This is also why sonw lf the early games used lots of glass and puddles of water as the reflections are simple. More natural scenes with balanced reflections requires some more hands on tunibg lf material properties.


There are then also the usual optimizations. e.g in a very long corridor a lihht thst is around several corners coilf in theory have a light ray that bounces lf multiple walls pibg ponging down the corridor and around corners to end up at the camera (and the ssme goes fo any material thst happens to be on the ray path way downstream). The reality is the rays get attentued enough that their statistical impact on the render is insignificant. so as is standard for computer games, things a long llbg way away out of sight are pruned from the computation, even if theoretically they have a non-zero addition to the lighting.

Thank you for the breakdown. So it does seem like we are waiting for a GPU to go all out in raytracing. I know people laughed at Coretek's speculation on a sperate ray tracing processor, but i am surprised that neither company has done this yet. The VFX industry would lap it up. It could also help speed up adoption.

I wonder if multi-gpu scales better with raytracing.

This is where the scene optimization comes in. Nothing to do with the geometry complexity but how many additional rays are required. That can be adapted by changing the amount lf slightly reflective materials are used in a scene. This is also why sonw lf the early games used lots of glass and puddles of water as the reflections are simple. More natural scenes with balanced reflections requires some more hands on tunibg lf material properties.
What do you mean by tuning of material reflection properties?
 
when you design a level, mcuh like applying a texture and normal map, you can set properties nfor how reflective the material is and how it reflects. You can optimise the level by making surfaces either very reflective or not reflective at all, so the trick is how to set the material properties that give the best visual impact without requiring too many bounced rays.
 
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