Is a 10 second car considered fast by 2021 standards?

[Housey]

Manufacturers chase big power because it's what turns people on, simple.

Lightness, steering feel, gearboxes that move like liquid, no assists, challenging characteristics needing a driver to get on top of the car have all been lost to spreadsheets.

I think the former better than the latter and most of us of a certain age think the best times were the mid 2000's before it all got silly.

 

[Gibbo]

Yeah good point, but without the power, you can have all the electrics you want, it won't go down the strip in 12s but yeah get your point. Leaps there, but leaps that cause failures hahaha... just more and more to go wrong. You slap 300bhp+ in ANY car whether it's got electronics or not and it'll shift!

Just think tech is now spoiling the whole driving experience... muppet gets in the car does it all for him, launch like you say, traction... esp... fancy trickery... personally just believe there's more to it all than tech... I prefer the old days with slower cars, deffo mroe fun

This aint true, 500HP Mustang I owned, getting it into 12's territory at Santa Pod was beyond difficult, I made a lot of runs and out of about 40-50 runs I eventually managed ONCE a 12.9s, JUST ONCE.

I then took a Golf R with 360HP, first go without even running LC it ran a 12.2s time and then with LC it ran like an 11.6 or an 11.8 cannot remember, but it was easy and it did it whilst not having a huge amount of power.

Then went in Jaaaaag, heavier car than Mustang and a little extra horsepower, 575ish, ran consistently 11.1-11.3s times over and over was a doddle, a friend had an 850HP Mustang, again I think the best he managed was around 11.6s.

The gearbox and LC systems make a dramatic difference, an automatic even an old school one will generally always be quicker than a manual and the modern stuff absolutely moved the game on by miles.

 

[Gibbo]

Manufacturers chase big power because it's what turns people on, simple.

Lightness, steering feel, gearboxes that move like liquid, no assists, challenging characteristics needing a driver to get on top of the car have all been lost to spreadsheets.

I think the former better than the latter and most of us of a certain age think the best times were the mid 2000's before it all got silly.

Correct, if we all truly purchased a car purely for feel we would all be driving Caterhams, nothing can even come close to the feel and engagement but for obvious reasons we don't, generally due to lack of creature comforts, but their are plenty of road cars that share the ethos and power is not their priority.

 

[pugheaven]

Gearing and auto boxes make a big difference as well.

Yeah really good point, these gearboxes now... so fast comepared to manuals... big advantage. Yep I'll stand corrected, tech is a LOAD different now to 15 year ago lol. When you add it all up...

 

[Housey]

Correct, if we all truly purchased a car purely for feel we would all be driving Caterhams, nothing can even come close to the feel and engagement but for obvious reasons we don't, generally due to lack of creature comforts, but their are plenty of road cars that share the ethos and power is not their priority.

Some of the first questions I got with my car were "you gonna get it mapped, these are a 750bhp car all day long" and frankly that bemused me.

Power corrupts etc.

 

[Hawk Tuah]

If you're not driving a Bugatti Chiron to get to your job stacking shelves at Asda - are you even moving?

 

[Gibbo]

Some of the first questions I got with my car were "you gonna get it mapped, these are a 750bhp car all day long" and frankly that bemused me.

Power corrupts etc.

Yes I have learnt especially in a car like yours if you did that, you would probably actually be slower on the road in it and probably no quicker round a track, maybe slower again, because guess what Mercedes designed the car as a package and know what they are doing, just dumping a load more power into it will just create a handful and probably a car with a less desirable power plot.

Some cars need mapping out the box to fix potential dead spots due to emission reasons, but some cars should also be left well alone irrelevant of the extra power you may get.

Of course it does depend on the car, a Mustang is a platform for messing around with, but something like your car has been done to more or less perfection by Mercedes, the faster variants they offer have more tweaks than just power to again give the total package as to speak.

 

[pugheaven]

This aint true, 500HP Mustang I owned, getting it into 12's territory at Santa Pod was beyond difficult, I made a lot of runs and out of about 40-50 runs I eventually managed ONCE a 12.9s, JUST ONCE.

I then took a Golf R with 360HP, first go without even running LC it ran a 12.2s time and then with LC it ran like an 11.6 or an 11.8 cannot remember, but it was easy and it did it whilst not having a huge amount of power.

Then went in Jaaaaag, heavier car than Mustang and a little extra horsepower, 575ish, ran consistently 11.1-11.3s times over and over was a doddle, a friend had an 850HP Mustang, again I think the best he managed was around 11.6s.

The gearbox and LC systems make a dramatic difference, an automatic even an old school one will generally always be quicker than a manual and the modern stuff absolutely moved the game on by miles.

yeah fair point. I think AWD makes incredible difference as well... I remember trying to get a TVR Cerbera to grip and go off the line... christ almighty was a mare... get my SRT8... I simply floor it, it grips and goes. It's cool and all, but doesn't really take any skill.

 

[pugheaven]

Yes I have learnt especially in a car like yours if you did that, you would probably actually be slower on the road in it and probably no quicker round a track, maybe slower again, because guess what Mercedes designed the car as a package and know what they are doing, just dumping a load more power into it will just create a handful and probably a car with a less desirable power plot.

Some cars need mapping out the box to fix potential dead spots due to emission reasons, but some cars should also be left well alone irrelevant of the extra power you may get.

Of course it does depend on the car, a Mustang is a platform for messing around with, but something like your car has been done to more or less perfection by Mercedes, the faster variants they offer have more tweaks than just power to again give the total package as to speak.

100% this. I once drove a 450bhp Pug 205... what the... it simply wrecked the whole car... could never get power down, span up in all gears... basically just a mess of a car all for dyno figures and that's way back when. I think when talking exotica liek you guys, leave the things alone maybe more appropriate beings as it's took so much R&D to get there... like you say, some it'll improve, some it'll mess up...

Ultimatley though most people who buy normal fast hot hatches, they want more power, pay ya £200 quid and they're faster and that's that. It is all about numbers now etc... not necessarily whether it spoils the car or not. Once again using my RX8, in that example that car really could've worked better with around 280bhp... it would add a new dimension to it and also the chassis could handle that no problem... BUT one of the most fun cars I've ever drive.

 

[Gibbo]

yeah fair point. I think AWD makes incredible difference as well... I remember trying to get a TVR Cerbera to grip and go off the line... christ almighty was a mare... get my SRT8... I simply floor it, it grips and goes. It's cool and all, but doesn't really take any skill.

AWD absolutely does help, but its more about the gearbox, my GR Yaris has a similar power to weight and AWD like the Golf R, but it will never even come close to that drag time, again it would be lucky to see a time beginning with 12, because you guessed it, MANUAL transmission.

My 458 is RWD but on a dry road it will hook up and hit 60mph in 3.1-3.4s and that again is because its got a great transmission and of course having a big V8 sat on the back wheels helps too, but there is no way it would be despatching 60mph that fast with a manual gearbox.

At the runway event, it was ballistic of the line with all aids switched off, sometimes it span up but just the right amount of wheelspin and again due to fantastic LC system that somehow transmits the power to the ground more or less spot on, sometimes it can spin too much or even bog but it generally gets it right, where Ferrari is a master class is their electronics are unfelt, the car just feels raw and mechanical which is what makes it so addictive to drive, because you feel like you are driving the car and not that the car is doing the driving. It is just nice that it can be damn quick off the line for a RWD but its also nice that it still moves around so much reminding you its rear wheel drive.

 

[Gibbo]

100% this. I once drove a 450bhp Pug 205... what the... it simply wrecked the whole car... could never get power down, span up in all gears... basically just a mess of a car all for dyno figures and that's way back when. I think when talking exotica liek you guys, leave the things alone maybe more appropriate beings as it's took so much R&D to get there... like you say, some it'll improve, some it'll mess up...

Ultimatley though most people who buy normal fast hot hatches, they want more power, pay ya £200 quid and they're faster and that's that. It is all about numbers now etc... not necessarily whether it spoils the car or not. Once again using my RX8, in that example that car really could've worked better with around 280bhp... it would add a new dimension to it and also the chassis could handle that no problem... BUT one of the most fun cars I've ever drive.

Agreed some cars benefit been messed with, others not so much and lets face it when your dropping 100k, 200k, 500k on a car generally speaking you should not be really having to mess with it.

 

[Housey]

My first car weighed 617kgs and had 39bhp. Top speed was 76mph (I saw close to 90mph downhill indicated IIRC) and 0-60 was 28.4 seconds. I lasted 9 months before getting banned for reckless driving. I think if I had access to the cars kids have today I would not be here. I think we had 20% of the traffic volumes back then too.

 

[Conscript]

I understand the appeal of drag racing, it is where it all began really and I have done a few in the past mainly of the longer distance sort. But I come from a generation before traction control, paddle shifts, launch control, 4wd across the range, electric power, ABS, power steering etc etc etc. You had a much bigger part to play in the past. I see little to no appeal in modern drag racing where you click launch control and see how quick you can react, but that is it. I never once used launch control in my R8, it will be the same with my current car.

I went out for a drive this evening in my car and I would defy anyone sitting in the passenger seat to tell me it's not an incredibly fast, agile, dynamic (by modern measures) and visceral supercar that is very very special and incredibly fast. It won't do 10 second 1/4 mile but to me that is irrelevant. I watch some YouTubes and the comments are FULL of people debating milliseconds. When I see this thread I just feel the same.

A 10 second car is not fast unless it also does 200mph and can lap a race track on GT3 pace. Fast can be measured in many ways, to me 10 seconds is just one of them.

Special however is a different debate. More subjective, more personal and for me a car that is quick on a drag strip is a "so what" kinda thing.

Each to their own.

Well said.

There seems to be a lot of people who are obsessed with straight line 0-60 and quarter mile times, despite most of that time being related to traction off the line and launch control, which isn't reflective of normal, or even spirited, driving

This is why the comments on a lot of videos about older sports/supercars are full of people arguing eg a Ferrari 355 is rubbish and you should buy a Golf R instead

Largely agree. I tend to think that "fast" and "slow" are words far to vague for judging a car outright, and there's more to it than just power outputs and acceleration stats.

It also annoys me when people go all top trumps with power and torque figures, but don't mention weight. Don't Caterham model numbers correspond (roughly) to their power to weight ratio?

 

[Housey]

I think my current car would have been the fastest production car in the world when I had my first car, if I could take it back in time.

Scary how things progress.

 

[pugheaven]

I think my current car would have been the fastest production car in the world when I had my first car, if I could take it back in time.

Scary how things progress.

Yeah same here, my SRT8 was the quickest 4x4 in the world in 2006... now it's way down the pecking order. (but hardly slow).. the world's gone SUV/POWER crazy... hahaha. Now where's that Super Charger lol

 

[Housey]

Largely agree. I tend to think that "fast" and "slow" are words far to vague for judging a car outright, and there's more to it than just power outputs and acceleration stats.

It also annoys me when people go all top trumps with power and torque figures, but don't mention weight. Don't Caterham model numbers correspond (roughly) to their power to weight ratio?

I think the people most transfixed on these numbers are those who live in the Xbox world, yet to own a car. We can put them to one side with a patronising 'bless'.

We then have a very young generation taking their first foray into the world of driving, many of who will have not driven a car without power steering, ABS, traction control or even a manual gearbox outside of their driving test and again it's sort of all they have. To be fair Autocar road tests were something we all focused on when we were those boys and girls in the 80's, though we all had crap cars with nothing automatic.

Then there are the next generation, who have a bit of cash and can afford to fund something proper quick. It's why we have Skoda TDi sorts who believed their car a 911 slayer. I used to think the Astra Max Van was when I got FULL access to it's 1.3L's after my Mini. So again, same as it ever was. It is this generation that seems so transfixed with numbers, our OP being a classic example if he is not some troll.

When is comes to cars experience is king. I don't mean to make you the fastest driver, I mean to have measures to compare against. If all you know is AMG 45's, Golf R's, Civic Type R's (not bad thing) then your chair at the big boy table is predicated on drag strips.

The big boys will pat them on the head with a condescending there there.....but again, same as it ever was

 

[Housey]

Yeah same here, my SRT8 was the quickest 4x4 in the world in 2006... now it's way down the pecking order. (but hardly slow).. the world's gone SUV/POWER crazy... hahaha. Now where's that Super Charger lol

I am talking 1984.

Bloody kids

 

[Gibbo]

Yeah same here, my SRT8 was the quickest 4x4 in the world in 2006... now it's way down the pecking order. (but hardly slow).. the world's gone SUV/POWER crazy... hahaha. Now where's that Super Charger lol

The problem is some cars are properly properly fast but when you floor them, you don't feel it.
When @kindai handed me the keys to the AV, big thanks to him I drove it and when I floored it in 2nd gear I thought is the car not giving me full acceleration, even made sure it was in its attack mode it was only until looking down at the speedo it was pegging 90mph in 2nd gear. So no it was not slow, not by any means was it slow but due to its size and the incredibly long gearing it did not feel or portray how fast it was to me and for me thats an instant no to a car. However that aside you are not ever going to drive a car that has more road presence than an AV, especially a bright coloured one, it is simply epic and now he is throwing an exhaust on it the epic levels just went up, so I get his decision nothing can touch a Lambo on that front, especially an AV, they just fill the road.

For me a car has got to feel fast or be engaging, so even if the car is actually slow but feels fast then that is what matters, I've grown up I don't care about racing other road cars or even want to, I just want to enjoy my drive. Not to keep mentioning the 458 but it feels stupidly fast and mega raw, to me as the driver it feels shockingly quick, in reality its no quicker than Jon's AV, but it feels it, dramatically so and I put it down to gear ratios make a dramatic difference as in the 458 they are:
RPM @ limiter: 9200
1st: 3.077 = 49 mph
2nd: 2.185 = 68 mph
3rd: 1.625 = 92 mph
4th: 1.286 = 116 mph
5th: 1.028 = 145 mph
6th: 0.839 = 178 mph
7th: 0.693 = 216 mph

I also rarely every wait for the 5th LED to light up so tend to no doubt change up around 8700-8800rpm but its the short ratio's that make the car feel so alive and fizzy, but also much quicker than it is and the fact it is already a quick car, the gearing makes it feel bonkers quick and that I think is one of the biggest reasons that makes me love it so much.

I always remember with my E46 M3, on the stock final drive the gearing was too long, so as its an easy mod on the E46 I fitted a different final drive, talk about the best modification you can do to a car, what a wake up call, forget about power, on cars with long gearing the best mod hands down is to shorten the gearing.

Its also a major downside of Porsches the gearing, you see it complained about often and it is true now I don't think Porsche do it on purpose I think it is down to emissions because we have to be thankful that Porsche are still giving us both glorious NA motors and fantastic manual transmissions but I guess they have to make a compromise somewhere to be able to still give us such nice things whilst complying with latest regulations.

Oh and of course shorter gearing ruins economy but my argument is when buying a sports car economy is not on my mind.

 

[Housey]

Mine hates the rev limiter. I've buzzed it twice (early days coming from a high revving V10) and both times it **** itself and went into limp mode, needing me to turn it off and on again.

It has a big red sign that comes up "CHANGE UP" around 500RPM before the red line but now I have it worked out I never touch the limiter.

 

[Jester*]

Power corrupts, I think everyone feels like they need more power more of the time as that would be better.

I want to have a connection to whatever I drive, the Yaris drives like nothing else and I love it, my 3MPS was my dads car so feels special whenever I drop into it (although it is getting a new turbo as the OEM one is pooping itself, which means more power), my RX8 is just full of quirk and personality and it begs to be redlined at every opportunity, has suicide doors, but is the slowest of all my cars while sounding the best.

Connection trumps speed for me.

 

[Scougar]

Until most cars get close to 10 seconds, then 10 seconds is quick.

The increasing reliance on auto boxes or electric also make going quick easier and consistent. However, power is nothing if you can't drive or the car can't handle.